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Red dot or not

A couple 3 years ago went to Dave Spaulding’s RDS class because I was seeing more and more Red Dots in class. That was the main reason so I gained more knowledge from a professional class.

While I can shoot 90% plus on any of the Justin Dyal assessments and such with a RDS they don’t make me any faster or better handgun wise. I didn’t say they don’t help others so everyone can do whatever they want.

That said, some good drills that will tell you the truth is any of the B8 repair center drills like the 5 yard round up. And assessment drills. If you shoot them at 85-90% plus your probably doing good if not well it’s up to you.

I have seen A lot of folks that think Red Dots make them great (or even their skills with irons is good) will be humbled than they think.

So as the article mentioned they help but there is some practice needed!
 
XD94045 said:
I’m a RDS believer and have them on every handgun I own that accepts them. What the author says about the need for training cannot be overstated.
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^^^THIS^^^

I’m still baffled (well maybe not that much it’s the internet) on the amount of hate Ken Hackathorn got. All he said only 1% of folks train to the point a Red Dir helps make a marked improvement. And from what I see on civilian and LE range use he is spot on.

Red Dots are a great tool but if someone doesn’t use them that’s ok too!
 
ECS686 said:
^^^THIS^^^

I’m still baffled (well maybe not that much it’s the internet) on the amount of hate Ken Hackathorn got. All he said only 1% of folks train to the point a Red Dir helps make a marked improvement. And from what I see on civilian and LE range use he is spot on.

Red Dots are a great tool but if someone doesn’t use them that’s ok too!
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Maybe because I don’t do public ranges my perception is different than yours. All the guys I know with red dots train with them, use them and do fine with them. As far as the learning curve with dots it’s only one thing really. Getting to where the dot is in the window when you draw. You really don’t even need to change your draw from iron sights. If your draw is consistent the dot will be there. Other than that it is infinitely easier to use than irons, even if it is ( or can be) slightly less pinpoint accurate.

I don’t know who Ken Hackathorne is but I do know there’s no way he could possibly know how many people benefit from RDS by percentage. He’s merely pulling his opinion out of his azz. Anyone who doesn’t have to “ look for the dot” after they draw is benefiting from it. As is anyone with astigmatism or old eyes. There is literally no benefit from lining up three things compared to lining up one thing. You can be fast with irons sure, but you can be faster with a dot. That’s not debatable. It’s physics.
 
Bassbob said:
Maybe because I don’t do public ranges my perception is different than yours. All the guys I know with red dots train with them, use them and do fine with them. As far as the learning curve with dots it’s only one thing really. Getting to where the dot is in the window when you draw. You really don’t even need to change your draw from iron sights. If your draw is consistent the dot will be there. Other than that it is infinitely easier to use than irons, even if it is ( or can be) slightly less pinpoint accurate.

I don’t know who Ken Hackathorne is but I do know there’s no way he could possibly know how many people benefit from RDS by percentage. He’s merely pulling his opinion out of his azz. Anyone who doesn’t have to “ look for the dot” after they draw is benefiting from it. As is anyone with astigmatism or old eyes. There is literally no benefit from lining up three things compared to lining up one thing. You can be fast with irons sure, but you can be faster with a dot. That’s not debatable. It’s physics.
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Word!
 
Bassbob said:
Maybe because I don’t do public ranges my perception is different than yours. All the guys I know with red dots train with them, use them and do fine with them. As far as the learning curve with dots it’s only one thing really. Getting to where the dot is in the window when you draw. You really don’t even need to change your draw from iron sights. If your draw is consistent the dot will be there. Other than that it is infinitely easier to use than irons, even if it is ( or can be) slightly less pinpoint accurate.

I don’t know who Ken Hackathorne is but I do know there’s no way he could possibly know how many people benefit from RDS by percentage. He’s merely pulling his opinion out of his azz. Anyone who doesn’t have to “ look for the dot” after they draw is benefiting from it. As is anyone with astigmatism or old eyes. There is literally no benefit from lining up three things compared to lining up one thing. You can be fast with irons sure, but you can be faster with a dot. That’s not debatable. It’s physics.
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Ken was a SF troop in Vietnam and worked training SF troops including Delta guys in his civilian years. He was one of the first instructors under Jeff Cooper at Gunsite and helped found IPSC/USPSA whatever you want to call it and IDPA. He is retired but very close and has his pulse I. The training and gadgets industry

Which is funny haters that were or never will be relevant gonna hate on someone that set standards and improved things so we have what we have now but that’s another story.

I get your view was a little different but overall I’d agree with Hackathorn maybe more than his 1% but it’s not high. Lots of folks don’t belong to ranges or go to ranges. They throw it on sight it in leisurely and it goes in a drawer

People that go to paid ranges where a paid membership is involved you will have a higher percentage of members that practice. So they will obviously be more above that low %

I have seen some LEOs even while they do 100% on. A state standard qual with that new Red Dot I’m watching and they have sundial times most of my only shoot at qual shooters are fishing for the dot. They make it fine but have a LOT of times. If I get them to shoot a 5 yard roundup on a B8 the 2 1/2 second part on all the shots they blow it and can’t score the 80% minimum same as if I run a Bakersfield Qaul

All that said a lot of folks aren’t as better equipped with a Red Dit as they think they are but anytime you mention it someone gets an ego punched. If it doesn’t apply to you you should e good. Of course we all see the same results with irons but nobody defends that statement like red dots.

As far as WML if you feel you want it so you but truth when some say you probably won’t need it it’s simply in the parameters of Joe Civilian you are not making hits in total darkness on a bad guy. A bad guy has to be able to see you to do whatever to you even at night parking lots have enough ambient light and if your aiming a gun at someone you haven’t 110% know your legal to shoot you could be on a hot seat if your “guy is wrong” and pulling it out at any muzzle diversion guys quip is BS you can not bounce enough light off the ground or umbrella it off a
Ceiling to 110% see if it’s a wallet cell phone or weapon. Paul Howe did a great demo on it. So then they end up muzzling the subject to get a confirmation.

Most folks are better off with an handheld and Pepper spray

And what I see it also gets misused in a LOT of LE contacts. And I mentioned this before it has caused a lot of LEOs to shoot the wrong person that doesn’t need shot.

So I’ll end with a question for yourself if you want to run around and use a WML only and are good enough because you TRAIN so you say. Are you good with someone you don’t know civillan or LeO using a WMl that way and having to sweep your loved one to get a better look to realize they aren’t a threat? I’m not and if it was in film I’m sure a lot would become activist and want a head on a stick!

Respectfully
 
ECS686 said:
Ken was a SF troop in Vietnam and worked training SF troops including Delta guys in his civilian years. He was one of the first instructors under Jeff Cooper at Gunsite and helped found IPSC/USPSA whatever you want to call it and IDPA. He is retired but very close and has his pulse I. The training and gadgets industry

Which is funny haters that were or never will be relevant gonna hate on someone that set standards and improved things so we have what we have now but that’s another story.

I get your view was a little different but overall I’d agree with Hackathorn maybe more than his 1% but it’s not high. Lots of folks don’t belong to ranges or go to ranges. They throw it on sight it in leisurely and it goes in a drawer

People that go to paid ranges where a paid membership is involved you will have a higher percentage of members that practice. So they will obviously be more above that low %

I have seen some LEOs even while they do 100% on. A state standard qual with that new Red Dot I’m watching and they have sundial times most of my only shoot at qual shooters are fishing for the dot. They make it fine but have a LOT of times. If I get them to shoot a 5 yard roundup on a B8 the 2 1/2 second part on all the shots they blow it and can’t score the 80% minimum same as if I run a Bakersfield Qaul

All that said a lot of folks aren’t as better equipped with a Red Dit as they think they are but anytime you mention it someone gets an ego punched. If it doesn’t apply to you you should e good. Of course we all see the same results with irons but nobody defends that statement like red dots.

As far as WML if you feel you want it so you but truth when some say you probably won’t need it it’s simply in the parameters of Joe Civilian you are not making hits in total darkness on a bad guy. A bad guy has to be able to see you to do whatever to you even at night parking lots have enough ambient light and if your aiming a gun at someone you haven’t 110% know your legal to shoot you could be on a hot seat if your “guy is wrong” and pulling it out at any muzzle diversion guys quip is BS you can not bounce enough light off the ground or umbrella it off a
Ceiling to 110% see if it’s a wallet cell phone or weapon. Paul Howe did a great demo on it. So then they end up muzzling the subject to get a confirmation.

Most folks are better off with an handheld and Pepper spray

And what I see it also gets misused in a LOT of LE contacts. And I mentioned this before it has caused a lot of LEOs to shoot the wrong person that doesn’t need shot.

So I’ll end with a question for yourself if you want to run around and use a WML only and are good enough because you TRAIN so you say. Are you good with someone you don’t know civillan or LeO using a WMl that way and having to sweep your loved one to get a better look to realize they aren’t a threat? I’m not and if it was in film I’m sure a lot would become activist and want a head on a stick!

Respectfully
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I’m gonna assume the WML thing was general and not directed to me personally. I have no WMLs on any handguns. I carry a handheld flashlight as part of my EDC. I do have one on a shotgun in the house but I will never actually need it. I have low level lighting throughout the house.

I wasn’t hating on the dude either. I never heard of him. My instructor, a 20 year marine corps combat vet-small arms instructor and retired police captain and firearms instructor who now runs an intensive training facility has a dot on his carry gun and trains in the use of both. The fact is though I am a range rat and train with a lot of accomplished dudes who are much better than me and I pretty much trained myself to use a dot on a pistol. And I am much faster with a dot. And so is everyone who actually goes out and shoots regularly. I also know a lot of cops, many of whom I am no doubt better trained than and who shoot once a year, but the cops I train with are serious dudes, jump out boys and range junkies. They make me look stupid. I never claimed to be supremely trained. I ain’t no one. I have realistic expectations as far as the likelihood of me ever actually needing to be trained for use of deadly force. I am as prepared as I can be for that, but I do it because I think it’s fun. And as it turns out I somehow ended up being friends with an inordinate amount of cops and soldiers.
 
Ken’s bona fides speak for themselves, but he can bring the snark and of course he gets that look like someone hung a turd under his nose when he talks red dots.

I think the whole red dot conversation and to some extent the WML discussion gets so generalized that people feel like there are hard fast rules or SOP when in truth we all have our own set of circumstances that to one degree or another dictate our rules of engagement. Sure we all need to learn some basic good practices, but someone who sticks a red dot on their gun and then shoves it in a drawer is going to be crap with a red dot or irons. Whereas people like @Bassbob, @KillerFord1977 and myself, who train regularly with red dots are going to be just fine thank you. I train regularly at bad breath distance and know that within a given range even If I never see the dot because of circumstances I am still going to hit the target. What Joe Public performs like is their problem.

As far as WMLs go, I agree that outside of the house I’m likely not going to need one. Inside my house at night is like being inside a black hat. It is dark, dark, dark. Very little ambient light in my house. I carry a WML because the only other person in my house is my wife - we don’t have kids - and I don’t live in a McMansion where I can lose track of her and no one else has keys to my house. I understand the desire not to needlessly muzzle someone in the most general sense, and without being cavalier, if I hear a bump in the night and my gun comes up so I can keep that dot in my view, and I haven’t been busted into by a 5’2” woman, someone’s getting muzzled. But that’s me. YMMV.
 
SimonRL said:
Ken’s bona fides speak for themselves, but he can bring the snark and of course he gets that look like someone hung a turd under his nose when he talks red dots.

I think the whole red dot conversation and to some extent the WML discussion gets so generalized that people feel like there are hard fast rules or SOP when in truth we all have our own set of circumstances that to one degree or another dictate our rules of engagement. Sure we all need to learn some basic good practices, but someone who sticks a red dot on their gun and then shoves it in a drawer is going to be crap with a red dot or irons. Whereas people like @Bassbob, @KillerFord1977 and myself, who train regularly with red dots are going to be just fine thank you. I train regularly at bad breath distance and know that within a given range even If I never see the dot because of circumstances I am still going to hit the target. What Joe Public performs like is their problem.

As far as WMLs go, I agree that outside of the house I’m likely not going to need one. Inside my house at night is like being inside a black hat. It is dark, dark, dark. Very little ambient light in my house. I carry a WML because the only other person in my house is my wife - we don’t have kids - and I don’t live in a McMansion where I can lose track of her and no one else has keys to my house. I understand the desire not to needlessly muzzle someone in the most general sense, and without being cavalier, if I hear a bump in the night and my gun comes up so I can keep that dot in my view, and I haven’t been busted into by a 5’2” woman, someone’s getting muzzled. But that’s me. YMMV.
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Same. If you come into my house in the middle of the night I wouldn’t be worried a bit about pointing a gun at you. Out of doors the 4 rules apply. If I have a gun out of its holster I’ve already decided to shoot something.
 
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