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Rules of Engagement By USCCA

KLGunner

Moderator
Staff member
Here’s a good read and some information I think we all need to know and follow.

this content and more can be found at https://www.usconcealedcarry.com

RULES OF ENGAGEMENT FOR CCW PERMIT HOLDERS – USCCA
Scott W. Wagner
The reason that law-abiding citizens obtain a concealed carry permit is to prevent or avoid a life-altering event of the severest kind from befalling them, a member of their family, or their friends. That is the same reason that I have carried a concealed firearm as a cop, off-duty for the past 33 years.
The last thing a law enforcement officer wants to do is to take human life. This is true due to many reasons in addition to the natural aversion that exists in people of good will. One such reason is the legal aftermath that follows the event. Most of the time, the law-abiding citizen or cop will encounter no major problems from the legal system. But in rare circumstances you can be right and still have the “system” find you wrong, with dire consequences. A recent incident that illustrates this involves the victim of an armed carjacking. The victim gave up his wallet and vehicle to the carjacker—the victim was free and safe. As the carjacker started to drive away with the victim’s car, the victim drew his concealed pistol and fired at the carjacker, killing him. While many folks applaud the outcome, the citizen has come under fire for his actions, and appears to be facing above-average scrutiny by a potentially hostile prosecutor and court system.
I am asking you to reevaluate some of your own self-defense concepts by considering some of the basic rules we follow as cops. If you can avoid a life-changing event in the court system, isn’t that part of the ultimate goal?
First, Defend Yourself With Deadly Force Only When The Threat Is Imminent.
“Stand Your Ground” laws notwithstanding, if you can move yourself to safety and avoid the situation altogether, make that your first choice.
Second, The 1985 U.S. Supreme Court Decision “Garner Vs. Tennessee” Prevents Cops From Shooting At All Fleeing Felons.
Shooting at DANGEROUS felons is ONLY permitted if the officers’ failure to stop or apprehend them would result in extreme danger to the community. For civilians, driving the danger away from you should be your primary goal. Once that happens you have “won.”
Third, Never Shoot At A Moving Vehicle Unless The Most Extreme Circumstances Exist.
Even when permissible, shooting a suspect in a vehicle brings more grief upon cops than any other shooting situation. The only way I would shoot at a moving vehicle is if someone was fleeing in a car with one of my loved ones.
Fourth, Don’t Shoot To Defend Property.
The police can only use deadly force in property situations if conditions escalate and they shoot to defend themselves. Follow the same guidelines.
Fifth, Just Like Plainclothes Cops, Be Extremely Careful If You Must Draw Or Use A Firearm In Public.
It is way too easy to have your intent and identification mistaken. When challenged by arriving officers do exactly what they tell you to do. Keep the palms of your hands open and in plain sight.
Six, Never Give A Statement To The Police Immediately After A Shooting.
Wait until you have an attorney present versed in the use of force. Period.
Conclusion
While you, as a civilian permit holder or home defender, do not have to follow our rules as required by court decision or law yet, I would advise that you give them some thought. You may avert a life-changing event.
 
As much as we might like to lay down a one man/woman field of fire on the Bad Actor, if he's showing his rump to you and hot footing it out of the area, he/she is not a threat and we must refrain from deadly force.

The greatest concern in an incident that requires me to draw my weapon is not the Bad Actor. I don't fear the Bad Guy at all. I fear the Good Guy/Gals that are going to mistake this old fart as the Bad Guy. So I had decided long ago that if I draw my weapon it is going to go back out of sight as soon as safely possible.

I would add a rule to never call 911 yourself. Have someone else do it as the conversation is recorded and you may say something in the heat of the moment that could be taken out of context later.

Lot of things to think about and it's best to work them out ahead of time to save you a pile of grief later.

Great Thread KL.... thank you.....

That's my 2¢
 
Here’s a good read and some information I think we all need to know and follow.

this content and more can be found at https://www.usconcealedcarry.com

RULES OF ENGAGEMENT FOR CCW PERMIT HOLDERS – USCCA
Scott W. Wagner
The reason that law-abiding citizens obtain a concealed carry permit is to prevent or avoid a life-altering event of the severest kind from befalling them, a member of their family, or their friends. That is the same reason that I have carried a concealed firearm as a cop, off-duty for the past 33 years.
The last thing a law enforcement officer wants to do is to take human life. This is true due to many reasons in addition to the natural aversion that exists in people of good will. One such reason is the legal aftermath that follows the event. Most of the time, the law-abiding citizen or cop will encounter no major problems from the legal system. But in rare circumstances you can be right and still have the “system” find you wrong, with dire consequences. A recent incident that illustrates this involves the victim of an armed carjacking. The victim gave up his wallet and vehicle to the carjacker—the victim was free and safe. As the carjacker started to drive away with the victim’s car, the victim drew his concealed pistol and fired at the carjacker, killing him. While many folks applaud the outcome, the citizen has come under fire for his actions, and appears to be facing above-average scrutiny by a potentially hostile prosecutor and court system.
I am asking you to reevaluate some of your own self-defense concepts by considering some of the basic rules we follow as cops. If you can avoid a life-changing event in the court system, isn’t that part of the ultimate goal?
First, Defend Yourself With Deadly Force Only When The Threat Is Imminent.
“Stand Your Ground” laws notwithstanding, if you can move yourself to safety and avoid the situation altogether, make that your first choice.
Second, The 1985 U.S. Supreme Court Decision “Garner Vs. Tennessee” Prevents Cops From Shooting At All Fleeing Felons.
Shooting at DANGEROUS felons is ONLY permitted if the officers’ failure to stop or apprehend them would result in extreme danger to the community. For civilians, driving the danger away from you should be your primary goal. Once that happens you have “won.”
Third, Never Shoot At A Moving Vehicle Unless The Most Extreme Circumstances Exist.
Even when permissible, shooting a suspect in a vehicle brings more grief upon cops than any other shooting situation. The only way I would shoot at a moving vehicle is if someone was fleeing in a car with one of my loved ones.
Fourth, Don’t Shoot To Defend Property.
The police can only use deadly force in property situations if conditions escalate and they shoot to defend themselves. Follow the same guidelines.
Fifth, Just Like Plainclothes Cops, Be Extremely Careful If You Must Draw Or Use A Firearm In Public.
It is way too easy to have your intent and identification mistaken. When challenged by arriving officers do exactly what they tell you to do. Keep the palms of your hands open and in plain sight.
Six, Never Give A Statement To The Police Immediately After A Shooting.
Wait until you have an attorney present versed in the use of force. Period.
Conclusion
While you, as a civilian permit holder or home defender, do not have to follow our rules as required by court decision or law yet, I would advise that you give them some thought. You may avert a life-changing event.
Went over this in the carry class.
 
Re: the 911 call - people I work with have instructions to exit any situation as quickly as they can, call 911, and give MY description.

2 reasons:

1. my friends KNOW what I look like; they have experience with me that pre-dates any event that may require such a call, so stress shouldn't impact their ability to describe me and what I'm wearing at the time. It'll be easier under duress for them to describe their friend who they've known for a long time, than it would be for them to describe a bad actor who they may or may not have actually gotten sight of as the event unfolded.

2. I want any responding LEOs to know what I look like, so (and I have the same thought as SMSgtRod of reholstering as quickly as possible) if a LEO arrives, sees a body, and sees a guy with a gun (me)...I don't get shot in error.
 
Care should be taken on the 911 call. If the perp is only wounded and/or his accomplice(s) (if any), are first to make the 911 call, it could spell trouble for the one that was defending one's self. A friend should be fine, but listen carefully on what he/she is saying, as the 911 call is recorded and that's going to be the record of the incident. USCCA (did I mention before I'm an Elite member ;)), recommends that you call 911 yourself, explain the incident, that you are armed, and your description, etc). Try to keep any witnesses from leaving so they can go on record on what they saw (being careful not to coach them before law enforcement arrives). USCCA recommends the 911 call to be brief, and then to call the USCCA incident line (24x7x365), and they will connect you with an attorney in the area. As mentioned, say nothing to police, other than you want your attorney to be present during questioning. Remember, in these cases, that the police are NOT your friend. Their job is to investigate a criminal incident where someone most likely will be charged. Do the right things to ensure it isn't you.
 
Care should be taken on the 911 call. If the perp is only wounded and/or his accomplice(s) (if any), are first to make the 911 call, it could spell trouble for the one that was defending one's self. A friend should be fine, but listen carefully on what he/she is saying, as the 911 call is recorded and that's going to be the record of the incident. USCCA (did I mention before I'm an Elite member ;)), recommends that you call 911 yourself, explain the incident, that you are armed, and your description, etc). Try to keep any witnesses from leaving so they can go on record on what they saw (being careful not to coach them before law enforcement arrives). USCCA recommends the 911 call to be brief, and then to call the USCCA incident line (24x7x365), and they will connect you with an attorney in the area. As mentioned, say nothing to police, other than you want your attorney to be present during questioning. Remember, in these cases, that the police are NOT your friend. Their job is to investigate a criminal incident where someone most likely will be charged. Do the right things to ensure it isn't you.
That’s something that’s been drilled into my head. On the back of the elite members card is the best and only way someone should react.
 

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That’s something that’s been drilled into my head. On the back of the elite members card is the best and only way someone should react.
Yup KLGunner, I forgot to mention the card. If I'm ever in such an incident (God willing I'll never be), I hope I have the wherewithal to actually remember I have the card & to read and follow it's instructions.
 
Yup KLGunner, I forgot to mention the card. If I'm ever in such an incident (God willing I'll never be), I hope I have the wherewithal to actually remember I have the card & to read and follow it's instructions.
Carry mine in my wallet.
 
AOJP. Always AOJP.


As legally armed defenders, we should be able to recite the four keywords ability, opportunity, jeopardy, and preclusion just as any shooter should be able to respond with The Four Firearms Rules, cold and on-demand.
 
AOJP. Always AOJP.


As legally armed defenders, we should be able to recite the four keywords ability, opportunity, jeopardy, and preclusion just as any shooter should be able to respond with The Four Firearms Rules, cold and on-demand.
Your absolutely right. Wow I can’t believe I didn’t even think of that one. Thank you sir.
 
^ Glad to help. :)

I find that most of "us" have really good understanding of the first three: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

It's really the fourth - preclusion - that tends to get folks.

I actually was lucky enough to have gotten this as a proper part of my Ohio-CHL lessons, but it really wasn't until I read Greg Ellifritz's article here - https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/preclusion-the-legal-concept-you-must-understand - that I got a more concrete understanding of this fourth-leg of the pyramid, if you will.
 
^ Glad to help. :)

I find that most of "us" have really good understanding of the first three: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

It's really the fourth - preclusion - that tends to get folks.

I actually was lucky enough to have gotten this as a proper part of my Ohio-CHL lessons, but it really wasn't until I read Greg Ellifritz's article here - https://www.activeresponsetraining.net/preclusion-the-legal-concept-you-must-understand - that I got a more concrete understanding of this fourth-leg of the pyramid, if you will.
Thanks for a great link. I carry to protect my family and myself but also realize the use of my gun would typically be fairly close and legally extremely limited. I think this is the one thing that isn't stressed enough in our classes, at least not around me. People leave with the feeling of being an empowered protector which is far from true. Just my opinion
 
Here’s a good read and some information I think we all need to know and follow.

this content and more can be found at https://www.usconcealedcarry.com

RULES OF ENGAGEMENT FOR CCW PERMIT HOLDERS – USCCA
Scott W. Wagner
The reason that law-abiding citizens obtain a concealed carry permit is to prevent or avoid a life-altering event of the severest kind from befalling them, a member of their family, or their friends. That is the same reason that I have carried a concealed firearm as a cop, off-duty for the past 33 years.
The last thing a law enforcement officer wants to do is to take human life. This is true due to many reasons in addition to the natural aversion that exists in people of good will. One such reason is the legal aftermath that follows the event. Most of the time, the law-abiding citizen or cop will encounter no major problems from the legal system. But in rare circumstances you can be right and still have the “system” find you wrong, with dire consequences. A recent incident that illustrates this involves the victim of an armed carjacking. The victim gave up his wallet and vehicle to the carjacker—the victim was free and safe. As the carjacker started to drive away with the victim’s car, the victim drew his concealed pistol and fired at the carjacker, killing him. While many folks applaud the outcome, the citizen has come under fire for his actions, and appears to be facing above-average scrutiny by a potentially hostile prosecutor and court system.
I am asking you to reevaluate some of your own self-defense concepts by considering some of the basic rules we follow as cops. If you can avoid a life-changing event in the court system, isn’t that part of the ultimate goal?
First, Defend Yourself With Deadly Force Only When The Threat Is Imminent.
“Stand Your Ground” laws notwithstanding, if you can move yourself to safety and avoid the situation altogether, make that your first choice.
Second, The 1985 U.S. Supreme Court Decision “Garner Vs. Tennessee” Prevents Cops From Shooting At All Fleeing Felons.
Shooting at DANGEROUS felons is ONLY permitted if the officers’ failure to stop or apprehend them would result in extreme danger to the community. For civilians, driving the danger away from you should be your primary goal. Once that happens you have “won.”
Third, Never Shoot At A Moving Vehicle Unless The Most Extreme Circumstances Exist.
Even when permissible, shooting a suspect in a vehicle brings more grief upon cops than any other shooting situation. The only way I would shoot at a moving vehicle is if someone was fleeing in a car with one of my loved ones.
Fourth, Don’t Shoot To Defend Property.
The police can only use deadly force in property situations if conditions escalate and they shoot to defend themselves. Follow the same guidelines.
Fifth, Just Like Plainclothes Cops, Be Extremely Careful If You Must Draw Or Use A Firearm In Public.
It is way too easy to have your intent and identification mistaken. When challenged by arriving officers do exactly what they tell you to do. Keep the palms of your hands open and in plain sight.
Six, Never Give A Statement To The Police Immediately After A Shooting.
Wait until you have an attorney present versed in the use of force. Period.
Conclusion
While you, as a civilian permit holder or home defender, do not have to follow our rules as required by court decision or law yet, I would advise that you give them some thought. You may avert a life-changing event.
Its Great we have fellow Americans give us all a little kick in the butt once in while about the rule of law as we can all get complacent over time that said = Year 2019-2020 has changed immensely for Firearm owners - Think about this 1 minute you have to use your firearm in self defense and you have t
As much as we might like to lay down a one man/woman field of fire on the Bad Actor, if he's showing his rump to you and hot footing it out of the area, he/she is not a threat and we must refrain from deadly force.

The greatest concern in an incident that requires me to draw my weapon is not the Bad Actor. I don't fear the Bad Guy at all. I fear the Good Guy/Gals that are going to mistake this old fart as the Bad Guy. So I had decided long ago that if I draw my weapon it is going to go back out of sight as soon as safely possible.

I would add a rule to never call 911 yourself. Have someone else do it as the conversation is recorded and you may say something in the heat of the moment that could be taken out of context later.

Lot of things to think about and it's best to work them out ahead of time to save you a pile of grief later.

Great Thread KL.... thank you.....

That's my 2¢
Great we have fellow Americans give us all a little kick in the butt once in while about the rule of law as we can all get complacent over time that said = Year 2019-2020 has changed immensely for Firearm owners - Think about this 1 minute you have to use your firearm in self defense and you 100% followed the Rule of law to the tee and you have to go to court How many jurors do you think will be fair? are a 1/4 -1/2- 3/4-jurors Gun Haters ?> Remember NRA are terrorist & 50% of the population want Guns Banned = only the bad guys have rights -Not Law abiding citizens
- SAD - Today we really have to be on our toes and hopefully have witnesses around when the poop hits the fan , @ my age 66 i have taken CCDW Classes since 1995 and 2016 - 17-18 Skill builder 1 Skill builder 2 Skill builder 3 -and recently Concealed Carry Drills -Nighttime Handgun Skills & Drills and the Best part is -I HAD A BLAST - 12 guys per class and i ended up coming in fourth place . some of the younger guys were mumbling under their breath - and i was thinking under my breath O well guys if you cant keep up keep notes



ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT Aug 31, 2019 - The lone conviction for Jose Ines Garcia-Zarate was overturned Friday. ... A jury acquitted Jose Ines Garcia-Zarate, 46, in 2017 of first degree murder, second degree murder, involuntary manslaughter, and assault with a semiautomatic firearm for his role in the death of Kate Steinle.

Think he had 4 or 5 felony's already
 
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT Aug 31, 2019 - The lone conviction for Jose Ines Garcia-Zarate was overturned Friday. ... A jury acquitted Jose Ines Garcia-Zarate, 46, in 2017 of first degree murder, second degree murder, involuntary manslaughter, and assault with a semiautomatic firearm for his role in the death of Kate Steinle.
Think he had 4 or 5 felony's already
Disgusting but not surprising at all..... from what I found it was 7 felonies.
 
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