Shield RMSc Review: Improve Your Hellcat’s Reflexes
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
I've been running an RDS on a handgun since 2011. One of the instructors who pioneered use of RDS on pistols (way before Sage) teaches just the opposite:
"The use of co-witnessed iron sights is a crucial factor in the usability of the red dot on a pistol (sighted at the same point as the red dot). With the traditional placement of the iron sights, sights that the eye has been trained to seek through countless draws in the past, the eye will go to the irons initially as they have always done in the past. The instant the iron sights are picked up, BAM, there is the red dot, and the eye can let go of the irons and use the red dot...ignoring the irons for any further use.
The "visual hand-off" takes place and becomes automatic. The irons serve as "runway lights" or visual anchors to get the eye where it needs to be to pick up the red dot."
Eventually (usually pretty quickly), one let's go of the 'training wheel' iron sights and just picks up the dot. In short, it shortens the learning curve to acquiring the dot.
Note above where it is taught to actually zero the irons to the same distance as the dot. Understanding this seems to be the sticking point between what I was taught vs what Sage teaches. If you just zero the dot to whatever the irons are set for out of the box, yes, you probably will get sub-standard results.
Bear007
Custom
I'm looking to put a red dot on my new Hellcat Pro in the near future after some research.
Does the 507K mount directly to the slide or require a plate?
Does it allow co-witnessing the irons?
It would be nice if there were some standards so one would know which red dots will fit a gun without using a plate or a bunch of research just to figure out if & how it mounts.
It will require a mounting plate. As for co-witnessing I think it would depend on which plate you get.
Bear007
Custom
Thnx
BobT
Master Class
When I talked to Springfield on mounting my RomeoZero, they suggested 9 in/lbs.
Bassbob
Emissary
Let me preface by saying this is MY OWN EXPERIENCE with red dots and optics and may not be yours. As a general guideline manufacturers torque specs range from 12-20 inch lbs FOR THE OPTIC. For the plate that attaches to the slide it's usually 25-28 inch lbs.
As for LocTite, if you feel you must, use the Blue and only a very small amount. And when you inevitably go to remove your optic use a dedicated, hardened Torx driver, NOT a Torx tip in your universal driver. Those tips will break. As for me, I don't use LocTite because if you degrease the screws and threads and torque it properly it is completely unnecessary. That is providing the screws are quality steel, threaded and pitched correctly.
As for LocTite, if you feel you must, use the Blue and only a very small amount. And when you inevitably go to remove your optic use a dedicated, hardened Torx driver, NOT a Torx tip in your universal driver. Those tips will break. As for me, I don't use LocTite because if you degrease the screws and threads and torque it properly it is completely unnecessary. That is providing the screws are quality steel, threaded and pitched correctly.
Bassbob
Emissary
My guess is you need an adaptor plate.
Bear007
Custom
I'm curious. When you say it doesn't fit, does it align with the 4 notches but doesn't sit flush on the slide? It looks like the sockets on the RMSc are not as deep (1.3 mm) as the sockets on the SMSc (1.7 mm) that SA pairs with the other Hellcats.
I also bought the Pro a few weeks ago and considering purchasing a red dot. I called SA and asked them if they had a footprint drawing for their "Springfield Micro™ " footprint that is listed in the Pro specs. The lady checked with the techs and the answer was no. I also noticed that none of the other Hellcat OSPs list in their specs what their footprint is. So the Pro could very well be a different footprint from the other Hellcats.
Let us know if it doesn't sit flush, doesn't fit on the notches at all or any other problem.
The RMSc would fit two of the posts, either front or back, take your pick, but the other two would not engage. I do not know if the distance between the front and back holes in the sight are further apart or closer together than the posts on the Pro. I believe the post on the Pro are a little further apart than the holes on the sight. I did see a post on another site in which the person said the used their drimmel to take a small portion of the material on the sight to get it to fit, which it did according to his post. I just can't bring myself to use a drimmel on a $300+ new sight. I would be interested to know if the posts are further apart on the Pro. From the picture you post, the rear of the sight sits flush, but the front is raised a little. This is what I experienced when I attached the RMSc to the Pro and tightened the screws, the rear sat flush but the front had space. This photo seems to fill that space with "shims". This shouldn't be so as it would seem to throw off the alignment of the sight from front to back, rising the front of the sight. I hope we can get some answers. its a very nice firearm, and I really would like to have a red dot on it.
Bear007
Custom
Along with a salesman very familiar with red dots at my LGS we opened and tried a few different red dots he thought for sure would fit. We found none of them did. On a few of them he too said I would have to grind a few spots on the slide to get them to fit, he never mentioned grinding on any of the sights. I'm not grinding on anything.
I'm gonna try SA customer service 1 more time for the footprint drawing and/or a list of direct mount red dots for the Pro model.
Bear007, thanks for confirming my suspicions. I'm not grinding on anything either. Please let us know if SA responds. I really don't understand how the engineers or designers could let this happen.
Bear007
Custom
I thought I would get out my cheap micrometer and see if I could measure a few spots first to make some sense out of this.
New problem - the screws holding my plate have a Torx pattern but my size 10 Torx fits too loose to be able to put any torque on the screw without stripping it. It appears the points in the screwhead are rounded a little so the Torx wrench can twist back and forth about 15-20 degrees before make contact in either direction. I don't know how tight they are and I don't want to strip them so I guess I'll try and find a Torx that fits a little better first. Where do they find these things.
Bear007
Custom
Found a #10 Torx security bit that fit better, got the cover off.
I called SA and got a nice lady that said she believes the Pro footprint is different from all the other Hellcats. So I asked for both footprint diagrams and a list of compatible red dots that will direct mount on the Pro model. She didn't have any of that information available to her so she will have it emailed to me when they find it all.
I told her we were discussing this problem on "TAL forum" and that it wouldn't be a problem if we could just get the info. I'll post whatever I get.
I called SA and got a nice lady that said she believes the Pro footprint is different from all the other Hellcats. So I asked for both footprint diagrams and a list of compatible red dots that will direct mount on the Pro model. She didn't have any of that information available to her so she will have it emailed to me when they find it all.
I told her we were discussing this problem on "TAL forum" and that it wouldn't be a problem if we could just get the info. I'll post whatever I get.
Bassbob
Emissary
I was going to say that looked like a security bit screw. I know there is definitely variance between bits and frankly for removing these screws I would use actual hardened drivers instead of bits in universal drivers. My guess is there is LocTite on these screws