Blackfeather
Custom
Sure... why not?
I can't stand red dot sights on pistols, but I love a red dot or holographic sight with a 1 or 2 MOA dot on a rifle.
Should I Run My Hellcat Without an Optic?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
I can't stand red dot sights on pistols, but I love a red dot or holographic sight with a 1 or 2 MOA dot on a rifle.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Old_Me said this "as i said earlier, in a self defense situation, red dot sights are kinda useless. all you got time for is, "point and shoot"..................... and he's absolutely correct. In any 'point-n-shoot' situation, you're not likely to use either sight; an RDS or the BUIS's. 'Point-n-shoot' is exactly what it says, and emergency or crises situation that does not provide time to effectively make use of sights.
It's sometimes called 'Instinctive shooting' and many folks practice as much at instinctive shooting as at sighting.
There are many reasons the RDS's and other optics are worthwhile, as are the BUIS's on any firearm. But regardless of which type of sights one uses, he must recognize the sight is a mechanical 'help' devise, not a miracle worker. He must do his part in learning and understanding the sight, how it works, and proper use of it.
It's sometimes called 'Instinctive shooting' and many folks practice as much at instinctive shooting as at sighting.
There are many reasons the RDS's and other optics are worthwhile, as are the BUIS's on any firearm. But regardless of which type of sights one uses, he must recognize the sight is a mechanical 'help' devise, not a miracle worker. He must do his part in learning and understanding the sight, how it works, and proper use of it.
I partially agree to what you are saying but the average military personnel never even sees combat. The vast majority of the military plays a support role.
Different models of red dots sights are commonly used by US infantry for CQB and intermediate ranges.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Great explanation and easy to understand for all. This also explains how someone using a 6"MOA RDS to try to hit a 1" bullseye at 100yds just ain't going to work well.
RDS's are not for everyone just like auto trannies were not for everyone when they first came out .... 'course many/most of you youngon's weren't even around when that happend LOL! But whenever we all got here, some things work well for some of us, some things not so well.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Concerning my post #25 just above, I was one of those who thought auto-trannies were for the birds when they first became common. But like most, over time I learned they were pretty useful and far easier to operate once I understood the concept. Now, of course I wouldn't be without one except on farm equipment and OTR trucks.
We all 'live-n-learn' !!! or at least most of us ...... even with modern/different sighting systems.
We all 'live-n-learn' !!! or at least most of us ...... even with modern/different sighting systems.
Thorgrim
Alpha
If you're shooting at a 1" spot and there are no other aiming references, then yes it would be difficult. With other visual clues like the rings on a bullseye target, it makes little difference.
Look at the target using a 3 MOA red dot ... then look at it with your irons. If you're carrying a short pistol with big, easy to use sights, they're even larger than the red dot - but you can still shoot minute-of-bad-guy with either.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
With all due respect MR. Thorgrim, what I wrote was if one is "using a 6"MOA RDS to try to hit a 1" bullseye at 100yds" .......... I didn't say anything about other visual clues, 3 MOA red dot, or even iron sights.
My imaginary scenario would be typical of some, primarily inexperienced with RDS's, who would take an 8" white paper plate out to a paced off 100 yds (maybe 100/maybe not), color in an approximate 1" bullseye in the center with a pencil or Sharpie pen, then try to hit it with his brand new RDS. Oh yeh, the one with the 6" (MOA) dot size.
When the hits just don't seem to come, and especially considering we've mounted our new RDS on a micro 9mm with a tiny 3" bbl, we all cry that the stupid red dot sight is just no good. With the situation as described, it might be typical to end up with a nominal 3"-5" group, but no one is likely to accept that as a quality sight system.
But you are absolutely correct in your assertion: "but you can still shoot minute-of-bad-guy with either." But that reality doesn't always satisfy the guy who just spent several hundred dollars for a new fangled RDS that didn't help him shoot bullseyes.
Everything in it's own place Thorgrim ...... everything in it's own place.
My imaginary scenario would be typical of some, primarily inexperienced with RDS's, who would take an 8" white paper plate out to a paced off 100 yds (maybe 100/maybe not), color in an approximate 1" bullseye in the center with a pencil or Sharpie pen, then try to hit it with his brand new RDS. Oh yeh, the one with the 6" (MOA) dot size.
When the hits just don't seem to come, and especially considering we've mounted our new RDS on a micro 9mm with a tiny 3" bbl, we all cry that the stupid red dot sight is just no good. With the situation as described, it might be typical to end up with a nominal 3"-5" group, but no one is likely to accept that as a quality sight system.
But you are absolutely correct in your assertion: "but you can still shoot minute-of-bad-guy with either." But that reality doesn't always satisfy the guy who just spent several hundred dollars for a new fangled RDS that didn't help him shoot bullseyes.
Everything in it's own place Thorgrim ...... everything in it's own place.
Thorgrim
Alpha
With all due respect MR. Thorgrim, what I wrote was if one is "using a 6"MOA RDS to try to hit a 1" bullseye at 100yds" .......... I didn't say anything about other visual clues, 3 MOA red dot, or even iron sights.
My imaginary scenario would be typical of some, primarily inexperienced with RDS's, who would take an 8" white paper plate out to a paced off 100 yds (maybe 100/maybe not), color in an approximate 1" bullseye in the center with a pencil or Sharpie pen, then try to hit it with his brand new RDS. Oh yeh, the one with the 6" (MOA) dot size.
When the hits just don't seem to come, and especially considering we've mounted our new RDS on a micro 9mm with a tiny 3" bbl, we all cry that the stupid red dot sight is just no good. With the situation as described, it might be typical to end up with a nominal 3"-5" group, but no one is likely to accept that as a quality sight system.
But you are absolutely correct in your assertion: "but you can still shoot minute-of-bad-guy with either." But that reality doesn't always satisfy the guy who just spent several hundred dollars for a new fangled RDS that didn't help him shoot bullseyes.
Everything in it's own place Thorgrim ...... everything in it's own place.
Thanks, I get your point now. I'm new to a red dot on pistols, I'm trying one on my 3.8"bbl XD/M in 10mm. I hope that while I don't expect a fine degree of accuracy, it might make me a better defensive shooter at longer ranges. You're absolutely right about it's use in bullseye-type shooting, it doesn't appear to me to be the best tool for that job.
A lot of people now throw shade on a laser for the same reason, and that some of them don't hold zero well at all. That said, I live in a house built in the early 60's that's been through some major remodeling at least two times and whoever did that didn't think it throught I suspect. It's pretty chopped up, and there's several places I'd have to clear just to get out of my bedroom to escape the house and the way it is now I think it would be almost impossible to maneuver a long gun here. Thus, my "house gun" is a 5.25" XD "Tactical" (I really dislike the way that word is thrown around), and it's equipped with a fairly strong light and a laser along with tritium sights. Especially if I have to contort myself a bit and can't get my eye behind the gun, I can still get good hits at the closer ranges this house presents. I certainly don't recommend a laser for anyone shooting past 10 yards or so or as a target sight, even if they can see the laser dot at longer ranges as I don't trust it will hold zero like a good set of irons (or even a red dot in those cases).
I'm an old fart, and my vision isn't what it once was by a long shot. If I can make a red dot work for me, it will keep me shooting longer. The jury's still out on that, I've got to put a lot of aimed rounds down range and work on defensive drills successfully if the RDS is going to stay on my carry piece.
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
Thorgrim, I couldn't agree with you more when you said this: "I'm an old fart, and my vision isn't what it once was by a long shot. If I can make a red dot work for me, it will keep me shooting longer. The jury's still out on that"
There was a time I fit that description to a 'T', and even today I fit most of it. The only part I've been able to change is that I did try the RDS, put a lot of rounds down range, and all of a sudden decided I really do like that new fangled sight system.
With my old eyes and some practice, I'm now far more capable with the RDS than I am with the BUIS's at most any range and/or situation. Yeh, it took some time and effort, and a real learning curve as to how the RDS's really work as opposed to the irons, but I got there and wouldn't go back now for anything short of it actually falling off my Hellcat forcing me to use the BUIS's. But I don't see that happening !!!
BTW, I'm sure some folks would agree I've not changed the part about being an old fart for sure ...... LOL! LOL! But generally speaking, they're probably the same ones who claim the RDS's are no good too!
There was a time I fit that description to a 'T', and even today I fit most of it. The only part I've been able to change is that I did try the RDS, put a lot of rounds down range, and all of a sudden decided I really do like that new fangled sight system.
With my old eyes and some practice, I'm now far more capable with the RDS than I am with the BUIS's at most any range and/or situation. Yeh, it took some time and effort, and a real learning curve as to how the RDS's really work as opposed to the irons, but I got there and wouldn't go back now for anything short of it actually falling off my Hellcat forcing me to use the BUIS's. But I don't see that happening !!!
BTW, I'm sure some folks would agree I've not changed the part about being an old fart for sure ...... LOL! LOL! But generally speaking, they're probably the same ones who claim the RDS's are no good too!
