Smaller Guns for Defense?

[RedGoat]

I have TINY guns, I like TINY guns, I sometimes carry a TINY gun; but I dont know anyone who shoots them nearly as well as a "regular gun". So that begs the question WILL the tiny guns you carry (because its better than not having a gun), really serve you when you need a gun.

Can you make head shots at 15 yards with it? Can you make body shots at 50 yards? Or do you only plan on needing it a bad breath distance?

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

My experience reflects yours, Pieter. Once one dips below the so-called "compact" size in pistols (or goes to an abbreviated butt flyweight revolver), an "average" size person with "average" size hands must alter their grip. Accuracy suffers as a result. Control over the gun in rapid fire suffers. Accidental "bumping" of the gun's controls occurs.

For example, I can shoot a 38 Special "target practice" load slow fire, double action only, in my airweight snubby and keep MOST of my shots in the area about the size of my hand at 7 to 10 yards. This is my current ability with my old eyes and iron sights. I can take the identical ammo and drop it into a L frame or N frame, shooting slow fire, double action only, and keep MOST of my shots under 2". Size and weight matter.

On the auto pistol side of the house, I observe a similar pattern. Using identical range ammo in my smallest auto vs my full-size auto, accuracy is fairly similar as long as I slow fire. When I speed up, the full-size pistol is far more controllable and shot placement far more accurate. AND... depending on the model, I find that it is irritatingly probable that I will inadvertently bump the slide lock control during rapid fire strings and lock the slide back before the magazine is empty. Once again, size and weight matter tremendously.

I'm not saying that small pistols and revolvers don't have a place. They do, especially when maximum concealment is the order of the day. However, to use a cliche, "A man (or a woman) has to know his (or her) limitations" and the limits that a given firearm imposes and what tradeoffs are being made via your choice of armament.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

I tried to like the Glock 26/27 guns. I bought and sold 3 of them trying to convince myself; but just couldnt like them.

I would see guys on the PD with G27s and hear how they could just drop it in the pocket of their cargo shorts when they went out drinking (so much there to cringe about) BUT when they qualified they always ran G23 size mags with the grip spacer, because they said it made it feel better that way.....imagine that

Again I do think there are times when only small guns will work. Now my first option is a PPK in 32acp. Yep I have smaller but I can still make rapid K zone shots with the PPK out to 15 yards, on demand, not so much with the Seecamp beyond bad breath distance

I also think theres a question about how tiny guns are carried and how fast they can be deployed into action

 

[RedGoat]

I tried to like the Glock 26/27 guns. I bought and sold 3 of them trying to convince myself; but just couldnt like them.

Yeah. If you want to talk specifics, my experience with those models was similar. Add together the girth of the grip and its lack of purchase for my small finger, they just have an "awkward" feel to my hand. If I'm gonna have to put up with that much abbreviation of the grip, it's gonna be in a thinner form such as the Glock 43 or SIG 365. I can't honestly say that those are "comfortable" to me, but they're ahead of the G26 / G27.

I would see guys on the PD with G27s and hear how they could just drop it in the pocket of their cargo shorts when they went out drinking (so much there to cringe about) BUT when they qualified they always ran G23 size mags with the grip spacer, because they said it made it feel better that way.....imagine that

Yep. Sounds 'bout right. An additional downside to running either a standard flush magazine OR a longer magazine with a spacer OR a standard magazine with a "finger extension" floorplate on ANY auto short-butt auto pistol is that one has to perform all sorts of gymnastics to get your little finger out of the way so that the empty magazine can drop free. And don't even get me started on how many times I've pinched the heck out of the fleshy part of my pinky, raising a hellacious blood blister, when inserting a loaded mag "with enthusiasm"

Again I do think there are times when only small guns will work. Now my first option is a PPK in 32acp. Yep I have smaller but I can still make rapid K zone shots with the PPK out to 15 yards, on demand, not so much with the Seecamp beyond bad breath distance

Uh-huh. That's exactly right. There are situations which DEMAND a super-small gun, but as you've done, one MUST know at what distances you can reliably get hits. It doesn't do any good to have a gun that you can't hit the broad side of a barn while standing inside of it when the time come that one must actually USE the gun for its intended purpose.

I also think theres a question about how tiny guns are carried and how fast they can be deployed into action

Bingo! On the nose. I think we flailed that horse pretty good in previous threads, but I'll go ahead and reiterate my general rule of thumb: The deeper the concealment that you carry your gun, the slower and more awkward it is to draw and present the gun. PLUS... The little guns with abbreviated grips are much more fumble prone when drawing from concealment, even when drawing from a holster rig carried and positioned just like you'd carry your larger pistol. Add deep concealment to the equation and the likelihood of a fumble increases dramatically.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

Theres a scene in the TV show "THE UNIT", where the guys are at a Dinning-In at a restaurant (think most formal Black Tie level of clothing). They are attacked by terrorists. Of course all the had guns. I remember Jonas had a Hi Standard 22magnum derringer in his cummerbund. Theres also a Walther TPH and I think maybe a Sig P230 used by other team members. The bad guys had AKs

With the possible exception of the P230. The Hi Standard and the TPH are guns you carry when you really dont expect trouble. Yes I wouldnt want to stand in front of one BUT they arent the guns you bring to a gun fight.

 

[RedGoat]

Theres a scene in the TV show "THE UNIT", where the guys are at a Dinning-In at a restaurant (think most formal Black Tie level of clothing). They are attacked by terrorists. Of course all the had guns. I remember Jonas had a Hi Standard 22magnum derringer in his cummerbund. Theres also a Walther TPH and I think maybe a Sig P230 used by other team members. The bad guys had AKs

With the possible exception of the P230. The Hi Standard and the TPH are guns you carry when you really dont expect trouble. Yes I wouldnt want to stand in front of one BUT they arent the guns you bring to a gun fight.

I remember that episode! Yeah, I like and carry little guns, but I DO have standards! LOL.

That said, I'll confess that I recently purchased a Bond derringer just to play with. I haven't fired it yet, but I'm certain it will get included in a range trip Real Soon Now. I can't really see myself every carrying it, it weighs more than my Airweight, is almost as bulky, plus I am expecting it to be sub-zero on the "comfort of firing and controllability" scale.

It's chambered for 357 Magnum and I don't EVERY see myself firing a full-house round of that cartridge in the thing.

I'm actually contemplating trimming a few already-too-short 38 Special cases down to either 38 Long Colt or even 38 Short Colt length and trying out the load data that the Lee manual provides for those. Yes, I am getting more recoil averse as I get older and my joints protest louder and longer every time I abuse them.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

I recently purchased a Bond derringer

I love the versatility of the Bond guns. I own a couple and several barrels because they are fun BUT they are far from my first choice for self defense for all the reasons you suggest PLUS the hammer is waaay to heavy to cock under stress

The old ADC (American Defense Corp) derringer guns were closer to the original Remington guns, much nicer for actual "Oh Shite" situations

 

[bc22wm]

BUT they arent the guns you bring to a gun fight.

I'm not bringing any gun to a gun fight because I ain't going. Any gun fight that wants me is going to have to look high and low to find me then I'm going to have to deal with it the best I can with what I got.

 

[RedGoat]

... the hammer is waaay to heavy to cock under stress

Ditto here for me. If I find that this little thing is fun to shoot and I can withstand shooting more than a few rounds through it, I'm going to start looking for info on how to improve it's action. I think that AGI has some material on the Bond specifically.

 

[RedGoat]

I'm not bringing any gun to a gun fight because I ain't going. Any gun fight that wants me is going to have to look high and low to find me then I'm going to have to deal with it the best I can with what I got.

Agree with the sentiment. The only fight ever truly one is the one avoided in the first place. Living through a fight which actually occurs is merely survival, not truly "winning".

 

[PieterCoetzee]

I'm not bringing any gun to a gun fight because I ain't going. Any gun fight that wants me is going to have to look high and low to find me then I'm going to have to deal with it the best I can with what I got.

OK yeah, but we (I) carry a gun because I understand the world and figure I might just need one some time; otherwise why carry at all?

Sure guns can be fashion statements and YES there are times when a small gun of limited usefulness outside that specific role are a good idea. I leave the house every day prepared to come back. Sometimes that means a rifle, shotgun, or SMG and sometimes a 9mm handgun; but never without a reload

Its all based on LOCATION and Threat Assessment. You can carry more than you think but you have to THINK

 

[Tangof1!]

.22 handguns, you gotta love 'em. But these and the various .25's, the derringers, and tiny revolvers are not for me. .380 in a decent sized gun is as low as I go. I did carry a CZ 82 9X18 MM for about a year and I would again in a pinch. I always carry concealed although it's legal for everyone not a felon to do. Why give the bad guy an advantage? 9 MM or .45 4:00 OWB, CZ preferably.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I tried to like the Glock 26/27 guns. I bought and sold 3 of them trying to convince myself; but just couldnt like them.

BUT when they qualified they always ran G23 size mags with the grip spacer, because they said it made it feel better that way.....imagine that

Actually , G27 w/ 23 mag & sleeve IS my default mode

Yep I have smaller but I can still make rapid K zone shots with the PPK out to 15 yards, on demand, not so much with the Seecamp beyond bad breath distance

Not actual PPK , but Hungarian near clone w/ alloy frame in .32acp is very sweet shooter .

NAA Guardian , almost clone of Seecamp , except stretched just enough for conventional FMJ , plus vsetigal sights . ( Plus availsble & affordable ) . But in my XXXL hands , there's a cpl inch of air gap between the backstrap and the web of my hand .

*For Me * it's center of mass at single digit feet. . But l guess it's better than nothing for a Third " Onion Field Gun " .

But it would be ergonomically perfect , for typical 7 y.o. girl .

I also think theres a question about how tiny guns are carried and how fast they can be deployed into action

I've posted about this before with my experiences .

Sure , the micro guns are good to tape between shoulder blades to parachute into Occupied France .

But carried such as to be quickly acessable , l found an Airweight J Frame to be just as easy to carry as a Baby Browning Clone .

 

[Anchorite]

^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^

My experience reflects yours, Pieter. Once one dips below the so-called "compact" size in pistols (or goes to an abbreviated butt flyweight revolver), an "average" size person with "average" size hands must alter their grip. Accuracy suffers as a result. Control over the gun in rapid fire suffers. Accidental "bumping" of the gun's controls occurs.

For example, I can shoot a 38 Special "target practice" load slow fire, double action only, in my airweight snubby and keep MOST of my shots in the area about the size of my hand at 7 to 10 yards. This is my current ability with my old eyes and iron sights. I can take the identical ammo and drop it into a L frame or N frame, shooting slow fire, double action only, and keep MOST of my shots under 2". Size and weight matter.

On the auto pistol side of the house, I observe a similar pattern. Using identical range ammo in my smallest auto vs my full-size auto, accuracy is fairly similar as long as I slow fire. When I speed up, the full-size pistol is far more controllable and shot placement far more accurate. AND... depending on the model, I find that it is irritatingly probable that I will inadvertently bump the slide lock control during rapid fire strings and lock the slide back before the magazine is empty. Once again, size and weight matter tremendously.

I'm not saying that small pistols and revolvers don't have a place. They do, especially when maximum concealment is the order of the day. However, to use a cliche, "A man (or a woman) has to know his (or her) limitations" and the limits that a given firearm imposes and what tradeoffs are being made via your choice of armament.

I carry a revolver because I expect that if I have to use it, it will be effectively point blank range to maybe 3 feet.

 

[Ozarker]

Tiny guns are very effective for self-defense against tiny attackers!

 

[southtex]

I carry barrels fitting into the compact sub-compact (3.6"-3.1") primarily. If my under pressure performance matches my range performance in the 0-20ft range it will be OK.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

I carry a revolver because I expect that if I have to use it, it will be effectively point blank range to maybe 3 feet.

I have no problems with a short revolver; but I no longer expect my needs to be at "point blank" range. That seems a bit "short sighted"

 

[Anchorite]

I have no problems with a short revolver; but I no longer expect my needs to be at "point blank" range. That seems a bit "short sighted"

It would seem to me that if I utterly failed in my situational awareness then I’m at risk of being the target of a assault/mugging or car jacking. That makes it a “Jack Ruby” scenario for me.

Lots of posts in these threads seem geared towards mass shootings.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

It would seem to me that if I utterly failed in my situational awareness then I’m at risk of being the target of a assault/mugging or car jacking. That makes it a “Jack Ruby” scenario for me.

Lots of posts in these threads seem geared towards mass shootings.

No not mass shootings, at least not exclusively but I know if I can make 15 yard head shots from a holster; then phone booth encounters come easier. Its not just mass shootings; but it could be the shooter at the other end of the aisle or across the church.

 

[southtex]

No not mass shootings, at least not exclusively but I know if I can make 15 yard head shots from a holster; then phone booth encounters come easier. Its not just mass shootings; but it could be the shooter at the other end of the aisle or across the church.

The only way I'm making that shot would be due to lack of escape options. If forced I would feel comfortable, having rounds in intended target but to many variables if you can escape. Other than my wife / myself I'm not obligated for anyone else. The ability to flee safely is my Number 1 priority. Different rules apply to my residence.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

The only way I'm making that shot would be due to lack of escape options. If forced I would feel comfortable, having rounds in intended target but to many variables if you can escape. Other than my wife / myself I'm not obligated for anyone else. The ability to flee safely is my Number 1 priority. Different rules apply to my residence.

Yeah your not wrong and perhaps 90% of civilians (and cops) believe that way; but I think the remainder feel differently and train to be the 10% when Heaven points a finger at you.

As with everything the decision is up to the man behind the trigger. Theres no shame for saying "I got out with my wife" but can you live with that? Some couldnt.