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Targets

SMSgtRod said:
I practice a lot of one hand shooting. If I'm at the XYZ store and in a situation with a Gangsta, his 90° pistol stance, one handed I present a much reduced target area. Granted a lot of stupid can get a lucky shot. I in turn am calculating that my mediocre shot is going to check mate his luck.
From everything I have seen these individuals that we are going to be confronted by in the world have never seen the inside of a range, only have the ammo in their active mag and most likely haven't a second mag and would have great difficulty swapping.
A real scare is confronting the bad guy and ending up hitting him/her in the back. That's real trouble.

I love your presentation. The difference of close to distant. I am thankful that unlike fighter pilots we don't have to calculate "lead" in on shots at the bad guys! 👍
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Missile lock and fire!
 
^ Awerbuck's loss to the community was huge. For one, I think that his Mirage Target System has yet to be picked up by another instructional cadre or school.

I had him on my "bucket list" of instructors to visit once I can really start traveling for classes, but alas, that was not to be.

The passing of that generation of instructors is very much a reality these days, with guys like Hackathorn, Vickers, Spaulding, Clint Smith, Paul Howe, etc. all coming towards the conclusion of their careers and looking at their much deserved retirements.

Similarly, there's no tomorrow promised to any of us, and even young guys like Paul Gomez and William Larson were here one day, and gone the next.

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SMSgtRod said:
I practice a lot of one hand shooting. ...one handed I present a much reduced target area. Granted a lot of stupid can get a lucky shot.
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For me, the calculus is definitely partially that - and on the other side of the equation to balance it out, the thought that a side presentation increases the chances for a through-and-through of my upper body.

Always pros and cons. :)

I think that the best that any of us can do is to simply be aware of how that calculation pans out on either side, and to also stack the odds in our favor by having at least practiced - if not become proficient with - the varied techniques.
 
TSiWRX said:
^ Awerbuck's loss to the community was huge. For one, I think that his Mirage Target System has yet to be picked up by another instructional cadre or school.

I had him on my "bucket list" of instructors to visit once I can really start traveling for classes, but alas, that was not to be.

The passing of that generation of instructors is very much a reality these days, with guys like Hackathorn, Vickers, Spaulding, Clint Smith, Paul Howe, etc. all coming towards the conclusion of their careers and looking at their much deserved retirements.

Similarly, there's no tomorrow promised to any of us, and even young guys like Paul Gomez and William Larson were here one day, and gone the next.

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For me, the calculus is definitely partially that - and on the other side of the equation to balance it out, the thought that a side presentation increases the chances for a through-and-through of my upper body.

Always pros and cons. :)

I think that the best that any of us can do is to simply be aware of how that calculation pans out on either side, and to also stack the odds in our favor by having at least practiced - if not become proficient with - the varied techniques.
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None of us it seems practice seeking and shooting from cover. Why stand there and duke it out when we could possibly present a miniscule target.
 
^ I agree wholeheartedly, and to an extent, I think this may have contributed to the demise of the first of the White Settlement Church victims, Richard White. Mr. White was the member of Church security who was seen on the video having tried to draw on the shooter, but was shot dead in the process.

While I do appreciate that we all have to begin somewhere, that the belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle, threat-downrange, shooting-line arrangement is an absolute necessity when starting with novice or beginning shooters, I think we're doing a tremendous dis-service by introducing movement as well as moving-to-cover a bit too late in the process (and sadly, the majority of folks who do not hunt are denied the ability to shoot at moving targets simply as these are often difficult and/or expensive to set up).

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March 2017 Handgun.jpg


^ These are two different classes, two different local schools.

Although the VTAC Barricade has now become a staple of the training industry ( http://knowledgeskillgear.com/how-i-built-a-vtac-shooting-barricade.html and https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...arricade.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2p2h0eItRvses79wtUP8D- ) and a part of many training classes, they are often not seen at the beginner/introductory-level. Typically used as a way to help students understand muzzle offset and positional shooting, it can also serve as a mock defilade. In both instances above, we were asked to treat the barricade as such, and specifically in the first pic, we were asked to go into the urban prone with either of the side notches (left for left, right for right).

Certainly, I think it's important to remember what we all felt like during our first training classes - that slowly sinking feeling of drinking from a fire-hose :) - that there's a danger of literally overwhelming the new shooter and making the class less productive because of it. But I think we need to balance the amount of knowledge with what defensive shooters need to know.

This kind of skill may not be suitable for a novice class where the students are just learning about gun safety - but certainly, for those looking at the prospect of a concealed-carry license or even taking a class beyond that, the idea of cover/concealment and moving-to-cover/concealment needs to at least be explored, if only to put down that seed of thought.
 
Here's my 2¢ worth. Carrying concealed, as at the church can be a death sentence having to get around your concealing clothing. I find my vertical shoulder holster a pretty fast draw. Tucked under my arm, with outer concealing clothing unbuttoned, you can't see it. All I have to do is reach in an pull it out. In condition one I'm good to go. Have tried it with friends. They have to push or pull the coat/jacket/shirt out of the way and then draw. By the time they have their hand on the grip I'm out.
I repeat: IMHO concealed carry is dangerous. You have a bad actor and he sees you pushing clothing on your side near the belt he's going to catch on real quick as to what you have in plan for him. Me I think he'll suspect less. Open carry, you can be as fast as me and most likely enough to handle the situation. Again, carrying in Condition One.
 
SMSgtRod said:
Here's my 2¢ worth. Carrying concealed, as at the church can be a death sentence having to get around your concealing clothing. I find my vertical shoulder holster a pretty fast draw. Tucked under my arm, with outer concealing clothing unbuttoned, you can't see it. All I have to do is reach in an pull it out. In condition one I'm good to go. Have tried it with friends. They have to push or pull the coat/jacket/shirt out of the way and then draw. By the time they have their hand on the grip I'm out.
I repeat: IMHO concealed carry is dangerous. You have a bad actor and he sees you pushing clothing on your side near the belt he's going to catch on real quick as to what you have in plan for him. Me I think he'll suspect less. Open carry, you can be as fast as me and most likely enough to handle the situation. Again, carrying in Condition One.
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I pocket carry at church (slacks have rather open easy to clear openings). I was using the ankle rig because I am seated more than standing but it is way too deliberate a motion to not be noticed when standing. All that said I am interested in a shoulder rig, do you have any particular suggestions?
 
HVACDOC said:
I pocket carry at church (slacks have rather open easy to clear openings). I was using the ankle rig because I am seated more than standing but it is way too deliberate a motion to not be noticed when standing. All that said I am interested in a shoulder rig, do you have any particular suggestions?
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I have a very inexpensive (cheap) Uncle Mike's vertical holster for a Glock 23/32. Got it from Amazon for about $50. Bought as an experiment to see if I'd like over all the inner/outer blah blah holsters I've tried. Skinny me, if I wear a LARGE shirt I can hide something on my side. Belt/waist holster is such a pain. Sit down move it, muzzle pressing here, just a pain for me. Thought I'd give a shoulder a try. Love it. Sit down no big deal. Use the men's room no issue what to do or were is my pistol whilst sitting in a stall. Hanging right there where it always is. Keep looking for something of better quality but wonder if I'd like it as the Uncle's is doing just fine.

I suggest that if you think you'd like it, order from Amazon, so if you don't can send it back no problems.
 
Some how I missed that one... very good
I on the other hand purchased a Bug-A-Salt gun. It really works and is great fun while grilling outside.
Ammo is cheap and lots of shots per loading. Dab of glue on the safety makes it easier shooting. OOOPS, I didn't say that! Don't read it please. Thank you.
 
SMSgtRod said:
Here's my 2¢ worth. Carrying concealed, as at the church can be a death sentence having to get around your concealing clothing. I find my vertical shoulder holster a pretty fast draw. Tucked under my arm, with outer concealing clothing unbuttoned, you can't see it. All I have to do is reach in an pull it out. In condition one I'm good to go. Have tried it with friends. They have to push or pull the coat/jacket/shirt out of the way and then draw. By the time they have their hand on the grip I'm out.
I repeat: IMHO concealed carry is dangerous. You have a bad actor and he sees you pushing clothing on your side near the belt he's going to catch on real quick as to what you have in plan for him. Me I think he'll suspect less. Open carry, you can be as fast as me and most likely enough to handle the situation. Again, carrying in Condition One.
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I think it depends on the situation - concealed versus open.

There's good tactics and the execution of techniques, and then there's those that are less optimal.

For whatever reason, Mr. Richard White was behind the power curve that day, and his movements - seemingly also very slow - unfortunately telegraphed his intent in a very, very obvious manner.

Open or concealed, I think that a surreptitious draw would have been much more advantageous. And while a surreptitious draw is harder from concealment (and seated, for that matter), it is far from impossible, and it is taught at both the professional (FAM, for instance) as well as civilian open-enrollment level (Varg Freeborn specifically teaches towards this end, and Dave Spaulding's classwork focuses quite a bit on seated).

In the role of security for a place of public worship, I think that a multi-layered approach needs to be in-place, and in this respect, there is a role both for those openly displaying their weapons/intent (remembering that this will make these individuals known targets for anyone with ill-intent: here, the OODA loop still favors the aggressor) as well as for those who do not (i.e. remain in "plainclothes" and concealed among the worshipers).

One item that does bear examination is that those who elect to carry concealed really need to practice from-concealment. And towards this, preferably in their typical wardrobe. Shooters need to be able to swallow their pride and understand that they won't be the first out-of-the-block, that they will clock-in behind most of their open-carry counterparts. That said, good practice can really drop that draw-to-first-shot interval, and there are dedicated classes out there which target this very skillset, such as the Pactically Tactical/APD "Diagnostic Handgun" ( https://primaryandsecondary.com/for...-alliance-policy-training-alliance-ohio.3664/ and https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/04/25/refining-the-draw-stroke/ ).
 
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Armed at the door and run them all through a metal detector....done deal.
Members with permits should be part of the defensive team. Scattered.
 
^ True, but that still leaves the rest of the facility at-risk.

It's kinda like the airport: there's what's behind security check-in, but how far does that curtain/perimeter extend? A typical civilian airport stateside versus, say, Baghdad International, where approaching vehicles must first pass through a perimeter checkpoint. Where does the security perimeter start? Where does it end?

Look at the progression of school shootings over the last two decades. Events which initially started within schools are now starting outside - both outside physically as well as temporally.

I don't disagree with you in terms of increasing security measures. I just think that while it may prevent one set of problems, another will necessarily arise.
 
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