testtest

The Police Shootout that Changed Everything

rcurtner said:
Most always used P/A system to tell drivers/passengers to exit their vehicle show hands walk to the rear of their vehicles. Did this while standing behind my open door.
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Hmm, brings up "another war story" as I pulled up behind a overheated vehicle and before we had walkie-talkies (portables). Never called in DAVs and the couple looked a bit older than my 28 yoa self, but called it in this time. He was standing with his door open and a bit nervous, with a lady in the car. As I discussed the overheating situation, I could hear the dispatcher from radio speaker in my patrol car, in an excited voice, call my number with "burglary suspect with shots fired" from a large city to our North. His eyes went to his back seat and then back to me, at which time he was looking down the barrel of a model 66 with a 6-inch barrel, the stainless glinting from the headlights of my car. The female started screaming as he was loudly informed where his brains were going to end up if he tried...
Secured him with a concealed weapons charge, as I removed a shotgun with slugs, a 30-30 level action rifle, and 357 mag revolver with armor piercing rounds. It was in an unsnapped holster under the seat thus the charge as the other jurisdiction hadn't issued a warrant. The long guns, backseat...
Seemed the burglary was domestic related; he shot up the house his Ex was in. The Judged released him not knowing I guess and/or the warrant hadn't arrived. He again tried to kill his Ex the next day and missed again. The warrant got to us immediately this time, while other deputies were trying to execute it, he shot himself...
Ya never know as the most mundane are suddenly not.
 
CEW said:
Hmm, brings up "another war story" as I pulled up behind a overheated vehicle and before we had walkie-talkies (portables). Never called in DAVs and the couple looked a bit older than my 28 yoa self, but called it in this time. He was standing with his door open and a bit nervous, with a lady in the car. As I discussed the overheating situation, I could hear the dispatcher from radio speaker in my patrol car, in an excited voice, call my number with "burglary suspect with shots fired" from a large city to our North. His eyes went to his back seat and then back to me, at which time he was looking down the barrel of a model 66 with a 6-inch barrel, the stainless glinting from the headlights of my car. The female started screaming as he was loudly informed where his brains were going to end up if he tried...
Secured him with a concealed weapons charge, as I removed a shotgun with slugs, a 30-30 level action rifle, and 357 mag revolver with armor piercing rounds. It was in an unsnapped holster under the seat thus the charge as the other jurisdiction hadn't issued a warrant. The long guns, backseat...
Seemed the burglary was domestic related; he shot up the house his Ex was in. The Judged released him not knowing I guess and/or the warrant hadn't arrived. He again tried to kill his Ex the next day and missed again. The warrant got to us immediately this time, while other deputies were trying to execute it, he shot himself...
Ya never know as the most mundane are suddenly not.
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Situational awareness has saved many of us. So has a bit of luck. I’ll take both. Great memory, CEW.

Randall
 
4th Horseman said:
Sorry to say it but they deal with politics more that we ever did back in the day. Law enforcement used to be fun.
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Politics...
I recall my dad complainting about their new Commissioner, John Spellman, a left-leaning republican in King County, WA
and how he just had to get his name attached to something right off the get-go. He changed the department from "King County Sheriff" to "King County Department of Public Safety" in 1969. Did that ever look rediculous on the side of their cars! He then changed it to "King County Police", and after he left office and became Governor in 1981, it went back to "King County Sheriff" again. As it should be.
 
Dobbinsky said:
Politics...
I recall my dad complainting about their new Commissioner, John Spellman, a left-leaning republican in King County, WA
and how he just had to get his name attached to something right off the get-go. He changed the department from "King County Sheriff" to "King County Department of Public Safety" in 1969. Did that ever look rediculous on the side of their cars! He then changed it to "King County Police", and after he left office and became Governor in 1981, it went back to "King County Sheriff" again. As it should be.
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Hmm, the Sheriff is supposed to be the highest LE Official in a County, or at least here in the South. Since he is elected he/she is accountable only to the voters and always amazes me how it gets watered down in certain areas of the Country as we have an Image to hold...
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I went through the CHP Academy in the mid-90's and, if I remember correctly, the very detailed crime scene photos from this incident were shown to cadets on day one of Enforcement Tactics. I can almost guarantee that most of the cadets in that class had never heard of or seen the granular details of the Newhall Incident prior to day one of Enforcement Tactics. It was a real eye opener as it was stressed to us how a determined bad guy will not hesitate to kill an officer. I've read that modern day felony stops performed by officers today can be traced back to the unfortunate results of the Newhall Incident. The unfortunate deaths of the CHP officers in the Newhall Incident have probably saved the lives of thousands of officers due to enhanced felony stop procedures performed by today's PD's.
 
CA_Yooper said:
I went through the CHP Academy in the mid-90's and, if I remember correctly, the very detailed crime scene photos from this incident were shown to cadets on day one of Enforcement Tactics. I can almost guarantee that most of the cadets in that class had never heard of or seen the granular details of the Newhall Incident prior to day one of Enforcement Tactics. It was a real eye opener as it was stressed to us how a determined bad guy will not hesitate to kill an officer. I've read that modern day felony stops performed by officers today can be traced back to the unfortunate results of the Newhall Incident. The unfortunate deaths of the CHP officers in the Newhall Incident have probably saved the lives of thousands of officers due to enhanced felony stop procedures performed by today's PD's.
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Thank you for sharing this perspective. I had a similar experience with AZ academy. The 1st time was in 82 and the 2nd time was 87, which also included the Miami shooting.
 
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CA_Yooper said:
I went through the CHP Academy in the mid-90's and, if I remember correctly, the very detailed crime scene photos from this incident were shown to cadets on day one of Enforcement Tactics. I can almost guarantee that most of the cadets in that class had never heard of or seen the granular details of the Newhall Incident prior to day one of Enforcement Tactics. It was a real eye opener as it was stressed to us how a determined bad guy will not hesitate to kill an officer. I've read that modern day felony stops performed by officers today can be traced back to the unfortunate results of the Newhall Incident. The unfortunate deaths of the CHP officers in the Newhall Incident have probably saved the lives of thousands of officers due to enhanced felony stop procedures performed by today's PD's.
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Just like the Onion Field shooting taught you to NOT give up your firearm. Was taught that in the LAPD academy in 1971.
 
Hello, long time shooter (yup, old, 1966, S&WK22MP6" 15 - 1st handgun; long time LAPD, Academy, '74.... included field trip to the 'Newhall Cafe [J's] with the LAPD's firearm instructors. we drove the escape route of the pair and observed the hostage/suicide home of the 'Hoags'.The incident was fresh in '74 and living in that area for nearly 40 years, much in L.E. I never drove north past Castaic without thinking how those lives were cut miserably short. The CHP were then primarily a 'traffic force for enforcement of motor vehicle related laws and incidents [and display of firearm in a vehicle was and did include it's penal code criminal aspects. Having been trained for many months with LAPD's intense, high stress, academy, Davis' excuse, " they screwed up, so we killed 'em" was literally hammered into us and the standard issue 'blue S&W Mod 10 .38 Spec 4" often with 158 grn RNL was our issue and training as well and we went thru a lengthy firearm only period including two handed combat, limited point, generally rapid sight acq and the 'bull' was the PPC choice. We would have a few LAPD Matadors to practice traffic and felony traffic stops. One scenario was a 'known pair of armed robbers, a two man unit was to effect the proper stop. Of course this was all checked empty several times, it was 'bang, bang, cops n robbers. procedure and smoothness the issue. so my partner, Mike and I performed the traf, loud speaker, "Driver, turn off the car, toss the keys out the window [for a reason I don't recall, the driver could not exit driver door... 'passenger, reach out your door, open it, driver hands hi, sit, passenger, slide out, get on your hands and knees, crawl away from car until I tell you to stop ; we had 'em then come out for 20 or so, 25 'ft and prone out face down... driver, slide across the front seat, at the pass door, stop... we, a 2 man unit would walk in on the passenger, cuff, and take to back of 2nd unit, so forth... any varying movement would be met with being shot threats.. last guy driver, put thru same exit procedure
and threats.. as the driver exited we warned him he was moving too much.... after a few cautions, I pointed the M10 at him and went "bang, bang, bang... ' the 3 instructors were wondrous, we had hit a full 2 months, and knew the process and instructors, 2 or 3 more months to go, "WTF did you shoot him for you knumbskull!!!?? I acted sheepishly and then said, " SIR For Newhall, SIR}"!!! All the instructors shook their heads and I had to take a few hot July afternoon laps on the old Olympic 1/4 mile track.. was fun and we did learn... I did have one shooting, over time my individual partners did also shoot, good shoots, bad guy down in one. Use of force, deadly was carefully considered. in mine, a head shot on a 'fleeing felon', legal then, a good hit but did NOT put him down [RNL] , he was thought to have burglarized and knifed a priest in his Church, we got there 'just' nas he exited and I outran my partner, the hit was witnessed by numerous officers, I had a great boss, he came up, gathered the few close eyewits, asked me how I was, took a few statements and said 'where's the body? Of course, I was known as a very good shot, but the Sarge looked at me solemnly, said, "no body, a.d. without discipline, oh well, we did encounter a potential suspect with a perfectly centered "reverse mohawk, who we knew as a burglar, priest had no recollection, so.. life, anyway different times but the guys at the Castaic incident from ALL that was told us simply didn't get the aggressive firearm training back then. The late 60's and early 70s hadn't the science and research both relative to equipment and psychology of training and so we lose wonderful men.

LAPD never played in firearm training, oh we had an instructor who would use a large diamond signet ring to demonstratet his expertise,, but. Of course most L. E. did move to an issued pistol [S&Ws and Glocks later But I know some officers carried, authorized bk up S&W mod 36 2" 38s and others added any pistol they might've owned and liked, ex, Hi-point 9mm Blu Browning which fit snugly between the left 2 edges of the issued 2nd Chance B.P. vest without being obvious, a risk, days, or worse but some of the nefarious 'Chinese Gangs, and others, had some excellent high volume, pistols].. while firearm use with L.A.P.D. came to great awareness in the 'Hollywood shootout' it happened in unknown moments of regular patrol. A friend was behind a bar on Crenshaw one evening in a 2 man looking for a felony want. The officer sent his partner obviously thru the front door, if you see 'emm come back out, no action, perhaps poorly thought out but, well.. my friend 'tone' was in the ally when a figure came out the back, mistakenly he inquired, 'hey pard',?.. got shot for his inquiry and a flat on his back, issue mod10 and no backup revolver engaged the bad guy, I recall he hit the guy from 14 to `16 times, a couple torso, others arms, leg, 'ol T got hit, survived, bad guy died, 3 or 4 weeks later, he died hrt attack in hospital jail. RNL not effective. The Newhall Incident was with our class forever and of course withe families and organization eternally.. life of L.E. is a bit capricious..... a 2 man 77th Div unit... chose up driver, passenger roles at the back of station, one wasn't wearing, hot night, but no one said you couldn'tbe dumb... at any rate driver gets tired, swaps, 'now' passenger is void of vest,sigh.... NEXT stop, suspect gang vehicle [never unusual for a 2 man to do felony stops alone [heck, that was what the "code 6 charles RTO reponse was all about.. 'officer you just stopped a felony want, use caution'. I had a day watch, rarity for the 17 yrs of L.E. most, probably 16 were night for me "but" i did a stop on a Tx vehicle in an industrial area of Newton [on loan from S.W.], in {of course L.A.... i am a bit muscly and was really so back then [ me and my excellent partner Steve A. stopped and did a complete F.I. on Tookie Williams and he behaved!] I was alone, a Code 6 charles on a TX plate was a warning. It was a murder want she said quietly and rolled a back up.... of course the statute of behavior limitations is past but I moved quickly to that Tx drivers left side and stuck the .38s muzzle in his ear, said "move and you'll never need another hearing test.." he was properly respectful, 2nd unit arrived and we cuffed and apprehended.. but as we see it is not a given.. 2 Man makes the stop, driver ofcr out, driver suspect comes out off hand caps a rnd at driver, dead center in vest! Both officers punch bad guy's ticket.. 'fate' smiled on both officers'...or?
Bad guy expired, vested ofcr, nice bruise... God smiled upon that 77th Div that evening.And these four good and faithful officers AND the USMC citizen respondent did all they could. Very sad, hard to contemplate. All
stay safe
 
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Roger D said:
Hello, long time shooter (yup, old, 1966, S&WK22MP6" 15 - 1st handgun; long time LAPD, Academy, '74.... included field trip to the 'Newhall Cafe [J's] with the LAPD's firearm instructors. we drove the escape route of the pair and observed the hostage/suicide home of the 'Hoags'.The incident was fresh in '74 and living in that area for nearly 40 years, much in L.E. I never drove north past Castaic without thinking how those lives were cut miserably short. The CHP were then primarily a 'traffic force for enforcement of motor vehicle related laws and incidents [and display of firearm in a vehicle was and did include it's penal code criminal aspects. Having been trained for many months with LAPD's intense, high stress, academy, Davis' excuse, " they screwed up, so we killed 'em" was literally hammered into us and the standard issue 'blue S&W Mod 10 .38 Spec 4" often with 158 grn RNL was our issue and training as well and we went thru a lengthy firearm only period including two handed combat, limited point, generally rapid sight acq and the 'bull' was the PPC choice. We would have a few LAPD Matadors to practice traffic and felony traffic stops. One scenario was a 'known pair of armed robbers, a two man unit was to effect the proper stop. Of course this was all checked empty several times, it was 'bang, bang, cops n robbers. procedure and smoothness the issue. so my partner, Mike and I performed the traf, loud speaker, "Driver, turn off the car, toss the keys out the window [for a reason I don't recall, the driver could not exit driver door... 'passenger, reach out your door, open it, driver hands hi, sit, passenger, slide out, get on your hands and knees, crawl away from car until I tell you to stop ; we had 'em then come out for 20 or so, 25 'ft and prone out face down... driver, slide across the front seat, at the pass door, stop... we, a 2 man unit would walk in on the passenger, cuff, and take to back of 2nd unit, so forth... any varying movement would be met with being shot threats.. last guy driver, put thru same exit procedure
and threats.. as the driver exited we warned him he was moving too much.... after a few cautions, I pointed the M10 at him and went "bang, bang, bang... ' the 3 instructors were wondrous, we had hit a full 2 months, and knew the process and instructors, 2 or 3 more months to go, "WTF did you shoot him for you knumbskull!!!?? I acted sheepishly and then said, " SIR For Newhall, SIR}"!!! All the instructors shook their heads and I had to take a few hot July afternoon laps on the old Olympic 1/4 mile track.. was fun and we did learn... I did have one shooting, over time my individual partners did also shoot, good shoots, bad guy down in one. Use of force, deadly was carefully considered. in mine, a head shot on a 'fleeing felon', legal then, a good hit but did NOT put him down [RNL] , he was thought to have burglarized and knifed a priest in his Church, we got there 'just' nas he exited and I outran my partner, the hit was witnessed by numerous officers, I had a great boss, he came up, gathered the few close eyewits, asked me how I was, took a few statements and said 'where's the body? Of course, I was known as a very good shot, but the Sarge looked at me solemnly, said, "no body, a.d. without discipline, oh well, we did encounter a potential suspect with a perfectly centered "reverse mohawk, who we knew as a burglar, priest had no recollection, so.. life, anyway different times but the guys at the Castaic incident from ALL that was told us simply didn't get the aggressive firearm training back then. The late 60's and early 70s hadn't the science and research both relative to equipment and psychology of training and so we lose wonderful men.

LAPD never played in firearm training, oh we had an instructor who would use a large diamond signet ring to demonstratet his expertise,, but. Of course most L. E. did move to an issued pistol [S&Ws and Glocks later But I know some officers carried, authorized bk up S&W mod 36 2" 38s and others added any pistol they might've owned and liked, ex, Hi-point 9mm Blu Browning which fit snugly between the left 2 edges of the issued 2nd Chance B.P. vest without being obvious, a risk, days, or worse but some of the nefarious 'Chinese Gangs, and others, had some excellent high volume, pistols].. while firearm use with L.A.P.D. came to great awareness in the 'Hollywood shootout' it happened in unknown moments of regular patrol. A friend was behind a bar on Crenshaw one evening in a 2 man looking for a felony want. The officer sent his partner obviously thru the front door, if you see 'emm come back out, no action, perhaps poorly thought out but, well.. my friend 'tone' was in the ally when a figure came out the back, mistakenly he inquired, 'hey pard',?.. got shot for his inquiry and a flat on his back, issue mod10 and no backup revolver engaged the bad guy, I recall he hit the guy from 14 to `16 times, a couple torso, others arms, leg, 'ol T got hit, survived, bad guy died, 3 or 4 weeks later, he died hrt attack in hospital jail. RNL not effective. The Newhall Incident was with our class forever and of course withe families and organization eternally.. life of L.E. is a bit capricious..... a 2 man 77th Div unit... chose up driver, passenger roles at the back of station, one wasn't wearing, hot night, but no one said you couldn'tbe dumb... at any rate driver gets tired, swaps, 'now' passenger is void of vest,sigh.... NEXT stop, suspect gang vehicle [never unusual for a 2 man to do felony stops alone [heck, that was what the "code 6 charles RTO reponse was all about.. 'officer you just stopped a felony want, use caution'. I had a day watch, rarity for the 17 yrs of L.E. most, probably 16 were night for me "but" i did a stop on a Tx vehicle in an industrial area of Newton [on loan from S.W.], in {of course L.A.... i am a bit muscly and was really so back then [ me and my excellent partner Steve A. stopped and did a complete F.I. on Tookie Williams and he behaved!] I was alone, a Code 6 charles on a TX plate was a warning. It was a murder want she said quietly and rolled a back up.... of course the statute of behavior limitations is past but I moved quickly to that Tx drivers left side and stuck the .38s muzzle in his ear, said "move and you'll never need another hearing test.." he was properly respectful, 2nd unit arrived and we cuffed and apprehended.. but as we see it is not a given.. 2 Man makes the stop, driver ofcr out, driver suspect comes out off hand caps a rnd at driver, dead center in vest! Both officers punch bad guy's ticket.. 'fate' smiled on both officers'...or?
Bad guy expired, vested ofcr, nice bruise... God smiled upon that 77th Div that evening.And these four good and faithful officers AND the USMC citizen respondent did all they could. Very sad, hard to contemplate. All
stay safe
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Welcome to the forum from South Texas. I'm also a Roger D.
 
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