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We Have to Be More Careful

somorris said:
There are always bad apples in any group, And I feel pretty confident some NRA instructors, as many as the NRA certifies, may fall in that group. The guy in the article made some big mistakes, obviously (based on Monday morning quarterbacking), but I didn’t see the NRA mentioned. Maybe I missed it. :). Let’s not bash each other because the guy goofed up. And personally, I haven’t walked a mile in his shoes. I hope I wouldn’t do something stupid like he did. But, we can learn from his mistake.

Happy New year everybody!
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Yeah the article said nothing about the NRA. That was all assumptions made by ECS686.
 
Bassbob said:
Yeah the article said nothing about the NRA. That was all assumptions made by ECS686.
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I simply brought up the question if he had any training and how some folks don’t realize how mush they would benefit from valid vetted training. That is above and beyond the watered down NRA stuff. Is that got in feelings tha yes non whoever. Wasn’t anything in the outfield with my question!
 
I have been a LE firearms instructor since 1971. Throughout the years I have been astounded at the lack of knowledge, or ingrained wrong knowledge, among new armed professionals and civilians alike. Misperceptions about the laws governing use of force, weapons safety, and gun handling are legion. Some of those misperceptions can get you in jail, negligence can get somebody killed. And yes, some of those misperceptions were perpetuated by uninformed "instructors".

We all have a duty to educate those around us at a minimum about safe gun handling and we darn sure need to inform ourselves about the laws on the use of firearms.

Not too many years ago previous generations grew up in rural settings and were familiar with firearms. Many served in one of the two world wars, Vietnam, or Korea, or served in the peacetime militry, and had training of some kind. Things are different nowadays than with our ancestors, as only 1% of the population have ever served in military service and most were not raised in a rural setting.

The responsible thing for a new gun owner to do is to seek out training but too few will.

I have to admit that, although I agree with constitutional carry, I am a little uneasy about folks with zero training walking around with a gun on them. Their inappropriate use, or negligent discharge could impact people I care about.
 
HayesGreener said:
I have been a LE firearms instructor since 1971. Throughout the years I have been astounded at the lack of knowledge, or ingrained wrong knowledge, among new armed professionals and civilians alike. Misperceptions about the laws governing use of force, weapons safety, and gun handling are legion. Some of those misperceptions can get you in jail, negligence can get somebody killed. And yes, some of those misperceptions were perpetuated by uninformed "instructors".

We all have a duty to educate those around us at a minimum about safe gun handling and we darn sure need to inform ourselves about the laws on the use of firearms.

Not too many years ago previous generations grew up in rural settings and were familiar with firearms. Many served in one of the two world wars, Vietnam, or Korea, or served in the peacetime militry, and had training of some kind. Things are different nowadays than with our ancestors, as only 1% of the population have ever served in military service and most were not raised in a rural setting.

The responsible thing for a new gun owner to do is to seek out training but too few will.

I have to admit that, although I agree with constitutional carry, I am a little uneasy about folks with zero training walking around with a gun on them. Their inappropriate use, or negligent discharge could impact people I care about.
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The benefits far outweigh the risk. And statistics bear that out. I understand your uneasiness, but the risk of bad actors with guns is far greater than the risk of law abiding, untrained citizens carrying guns. I'll point out again that the vast majority of CC permit holders are essentially untrained.
 
By the way, I saw a news clip this morning about a LEO who was off duty getting in an elevator with his wife and shot himself while reholstering his CC gun. He was probably well trained, or at least was supposed to be. Anyone of us can do stupid stuff sometimes. I have done my share!
 
bc22wm said:
Vetted by whom?
Sounds suspiciously like my training is superior, My trainer is the most knowledgeable, my gun is the only correct way to go.........................................
March in lock step or YOUR WRONG!
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This is a phenomenon among many "Trained" firearm enthusiasts. It's kind of like when people go off to college and then assume they are smarter than everyone else and act accordingly. Or when doctors consider themselves the final authority on everything whether they know something about it or not. Or maybe it's like deer hunters who do all this crazy stuff so they can convince themselves and others that what they are doing is difficult. Like Camoflage and deer scents and all that. I've killed a shite ton of big deer, many with jeans on, standing against a tree with a cigarette in my mouth.
 
I emailed Scott Bach, NRA Board, a couple years ago about the turmoil at the NRA. Hr sent the following link to an article he had written. If you have not read it, you may want to spend a few minutes and do that. It presents the other side of the anti-NRA arguments. Divide and conquer is working pretty well against us.

www.ammoland.com

What’s REALLY Going On Inside NRA Operations

LaPierre’s response to the ultimatum was swift and decisive: he refused to step down, disclosed the threats that were made, and accelerated legal efforts.
www.ammoland.com www.ammoland.com
 
bc22wm said:
Vetted by whom?
Sounds suspiciously like my training is superior, My trainer is the most knowledgeable, my gun is the only correct way to go.........................................
March in lock step or YOUR WRONG!
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By vetted I’m referring to quality proven places like if they are a Gunsite instructor, a Rangemaster at least basic Instructor etc that caliber. With those two specifically one has to actually earn an instructor title.

Also If you look at a lot of the national respected (notice I said respected not just known) Bolke, Hearne, Haggard, Weems, Spaulding, Ellifritz etc are all interconnected to or with Gunsite, Rangemaster or maybe a the Tactical Defense Institute out of Ohio and others I might not have mentioned.
 
ECS686 said:
By vetted I’m referring to quality proven places like if they are a Gunsite instructor, a Rangemaster at least basic Instructor etc that caliber. With those two specifically one has to actually earn an instructor title.

Also If you look at a lot of the national respected (notice I said respected not just known) Bolke, Hearne, Haggard, Weems, Spaulding, Ellifritz etc are all interconnected to or with Gunsite, Rangemaster or maybe a the Tactical Defense Institute out of Ohio and others I might not have mentioned.
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So elitist and expensive ( though clearly well qualified) instructors are the only legitimate courses of training. Got it. I'll be sure to inform all the guys I train with they are fudds. Even the 2 spec ops guys. None of whom have ever trained at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch or blah, blah, blah.
 
somorris said:
I emailed Scott Bach, NRA Board, a couple years ago about the turmoil at the NRA. Hr sent the following link to an article he had written. If you have not read it, you may want to spend a few minutes and do that. It presents the other side of the anti-NRA arguments. Divide and conquer is working pretty well against us.

www.ammoland.com

What’s REALLY Going On Inside NRA Operations

LaPierre’s response to the ultimatum was swift and decisive: he refused to step down, disclosed the threats that were made, and accelerated legal efforts.
www.ammoland.com www.ammoland.com
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I had a suspicion something like this was the case all along. My position here has been very clear. Without evidence of wrong doing by WLP I was unwilling to judge him one way or the other. And in any case I wasn't disavowing the NRA as it clearly plays into the hands of all the connected, anti-gun politicians and activists who desperately seek to neuter the NRA. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to learn that funding for some of the new "Gun rights groups" isn't actually provided by Bloomberg, Brady or The Clinton Foundation.

What exactly are the details of the campaign against WLP and what exactly is he guilty of, I do not know. I can tell you one thing though. After 2 years of listening to many members here shite on the NRA over it, if it comes to light they were all duped to their own detriment I am going to have a lot to say about it and will be relentless in pointing out their naivety and duplicity.
 
I have been trying to tell everyone for years that good old Olli North knows a thing or two about misappropriation of funds. Just go back to the Iran Contra hearings and what he spent on HIS OWN HOME.
Thanks somorris I had never seen that before. Wonder why
 
Bassbob said:
So elitist and expensive ( though clearly well qualified) instructors are the only legitimate courses of training. Got it. I'll be sure to inform all the guys I train with they are fudds. Even the 2 spec ops guys. None of whom have ever trained at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch or blah, blah, blah.
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While Gunsite is an expensive journey I mentioned Gunsite Instructor which they all have their own side gig. Gunsite only has like 4 full time employees

A class from any of the individuals mentioned is around 200 a day average not hardly elitist

And as far as your special ops guys my Gunsite and Rangemaster mention was a guideline. There’s valid “spec ops guys” and my agency has also had Kyle Lamb and Dutch Chris Moyer come in if you insist on bringing “special ops” guys into it we could go there to.

The average Jane and Joe would get valid above average training from any of the ones I mentioned but if you want to play Army well you do you!
 
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ECS686 said:
While Gunsite is an expensive journey I mentioned Gunsite Instructor which they all have their own side gig. Gunsite only has like 4 full time employees

A class from any of the individuals mentioned is around 200 a day average not hardly elitist

And as far as your special ops guys my Gunsite and Rangemaster mention was a guideline. There’s valid “spec ops guys” and my agency has also had Kyle Lamb and Dutch Chris Moyer come in if you insist on bringing “special ops” guys into it we could go there to.

The average Jane and Hoe would get valid above average training from any of the ones I mentioned but if you want to play Army well you do you!
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More elitist bullshit.

I'm sure you think your "agency" ( remember long ago when I told you you sounded like a fed ?) is the creme de la creme. And everyone else is just playing army. You sound just like my cousin and his wife. Both FBI agents and both think they are the :poop:.
 
Bassbob said:
More elitist bullshit.

I'm sure you think your "agency" ( remember long ago when I told you you sounded like a fed ?) is the creme de la creme. And everyone else is just playing army. You sound just like my cousin and his wife. Both FBI agents and both think they are the :poop:.
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Whatever Bass, you should know as I’ve mentioned it I am retired from the Federal Bureau of Prisons And worked for the Marshals Service before that as a contract guard doing cross country trips. In BOP I was a Lead Firearms instructor and taught a few classes at FLETC. However I never said or think I was elite or all that.

But since you are throwing darts my current agency post “Fed” retirement is with a Sheriffs Office and they are the ones that brought in Lamb and Mouor.

If I was all that I wouldn’t have expanded my training and attended Rangemaster Basic and Adbance Instructor classes as well as host folks like Bolke and Hearne

And continue to attend to me anyway relevant training to do the continuing education so it that’s elitist in you book whatever!

Have a nice day Bub!
 
ECS686 said:
Whatever Bass, you should know as I’ve mentioned it I am retired from the Federal Bureau of Prisons And worked for the Marshals Service before that as a contract guard doing cross country trips. In BOP I was a Lead Firearms instructor and taught a few classes at FLETC. However I never said or think I was elite or all that.

But since you are throwing darts my current agency post “Fed” retirement is with a Sheriffs Office and they are the ones that brought in Lamb and Mouor.

If I was all that I wouldn’t have expanded my training and attended Rangemaster Basic and Adbance Instructor classes as well as host folks like Bolke and Hearne

And continue to attend to me anyway relevant training to do the continuing education so it that’s elitist in you book whatever!

Have a nice day Bub!
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I don't begrudge anyone to take the best courses with the best instructors they can afford. And if your work is paying for it that's even better. My only point, besides clearly being kind of an asshole, was to point out that there are a lot of great instructors no one has ever heard of. I also think it's not fair or accurate to assume that since someone is a ( insert well known, high end training facility) instructor that the level of training is any better, any worse or any different. I do agree some amount of research should be done before wasting your money since there is clearly no shortage of bad instructors out there as well. The thing is at this point most of us have had enough formal training that spotting a bad instructor should easily be something you could do after the first course. In my experience, usually instructors inside or associated with gun stores/ranges are the worst. So no, I have never taken any of Clint Smith's courses or any of those other guys you mentioned, but I have taken plenty of courses with instructors who train military and LEO and/or have actual extensive combat, warfare and LEO experience. And the fact that you have never heard the name Bill Curry doesn't mean that your training is any better or more effective than mine.

You have a nice day too.
 
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