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What a Red Dot Sight Won’t Do for You

Proper technique and fundamentals are paramount to everything else. Once that is accomplished, the rest comes into play.
One should be able to shoot accurately with any semi auto regardless of brand. Same for revolver.
I am fortunate to shoot many different pistols I own as well of those of many friends. My groupings and quality remain true accross the pistols. If a sight is off, it just means that tight group is all off together in the same holes, not all over the place.
 
Self defense. Point. Shoot. No BS timer involved. Do this inside 7 yards. No further. No ancillary crap hanging off the gun. Unless you're a cop, you're never going to have a need to shoot at anyone in a self defense situation over 7 yards. But keep training at your paper targets out at 25 yards. The ammunition manufacturers love it.
 
MROD said:
Self defense. Point. Shoot. No BS timer involved. Do this inside 7 yards. No further. No ancillary crap hanging off the gun. Unless you're a cop, you're never going to have a need to shoot at anyone in a self defense situation over 7 yards. But keep training at your paper targets out at 25 yards. The ammunition manufacturers love it.
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never say never. that's when it happens.
also, shooting is a hobby for a lot of people, so shooting at many different distances is for fun and keeping it not so mundane. shooting isnt just for learning self defense. that's only part of it.

your statement are categorically incorrect for many reasons.
 
Depends on your use, and your eyesight. At close combat ranges, I'll say irons are just as good, if not better than dots.

Sights and sight alignment are only secondary to pistol shooting. Number one is learning how to break the shot without moving the pistol while doing it. Until you master number one, I don't think you will ever see any advantage from sighting systems.

I've got a dot on my AR, but not on any of my handguns. I think a dot makes perfect sense considering the range variability that an AR carbine is expected to fulfill, but on handguns intended for self-defense, I'm skeptical. The range at which you are in a self-defense engagement is statistically 7 yards, so I don't see how a dot offers any benefit.

And I will go down on record as firmly against hanging any accessory off a handgun when the handgun is intended to protect my life.
 
KillerFord1977 said:
never say never. that's when it happens.
also, shooting is a hobby for a lot of people, so shooting at many different distances is for fun and keeping it not so mundane. shooting isnt just for learning self defense. that's only part of it.

your statement are categorically incorrect for many reasons.
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100% agree with you.. I shoot for fun as a hobby. I enjoy trying different distances and positions to keep range time interesting and have fun. In 69 years of existence I've never been in a situation where I need to draw a weapon. I won't say it will never happen but I'm not walking around looking for boogeymen.. That's not to say situation awareness isn't relevant but I'm not walking around looking for trouble.. I love range time and will continue to practice different distances and positions to have fun and in the long run be better with my weapon..
 
@Mike H. Thank You for the article and I agree with the backbone of it, Red Dot Sights are not the solution for shooting skills. For some shooters the RDS may be an advantage for those with abnormal vision issues or the elderly with decaying vision. For others the RDS may present a perceived advantage. And yet for some there may be an actual advantage in some shooting situations.

Based on many years of shooting experience and many years as an instructor I feel the RDS is a terrible sight system for beginning students, Once the fundamentals are achieved, for some students the RDS may offer an advantage in some shooting situations.

As for never the need to train beyond 7 yards for self-defense, that statement is rather ludicrous! As for never hanging "ancillary crap", if it includes a weapon mounted light, that is also rather ludicrous!

As for the quote of Ken Hackathorn in the PewView video posted @SimonRL, when Ken speaks, shooters should listen. We don't agree on everything (imagine that!), but what comes out of his mouth is grounded in wisdom learned the hard way and skills development based on reality.

Focusing on the front site is a training technique we use for beginning students to learn and develop gun alignment skills. It can also be helpful for experienced shooters when addressing target distances better suited to carbines/rifles. Within handgun combat distances it is more conducive to keep focus on the target. Once gun alignment is skilled, "keep our eye on the ball", it makes no difference if we are a civilian, cop, or military. The raw elements of combat remain the same.
 
Look, we’ve seen in this site alone numerous examples of shooters who spend massive amounts of time at the range and hitting the target is a crap shoot. Nothing replaces technique. Nothing. But like a red dot or not, if your technique is sound it is not going to make you worse. Does a red dot take some getting used to? Sure, but if you know what you are doing it is going to come to you easier. I shoot red dots almost exclusively so my sample size is ginormous and I personally wouldn’t run a gun without one. If I lose sight of the dot I index off the hoop of the optic, which I have marked dead center with a silver sharpie. I can hit A zone shots without ever seeing the dot and I have pulled my gun on someone at that distance. 15 yds seemed much farther away when I wasn’t aiming at a paper target. I was happy as hell to see my dot on the target.
 
SimonRL said:
. Nothing replaces technique.
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SimonRL said:
Sure, but if you know what you are doing it is going to come to you easier.
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Yes .... and No

Absolutely . With out good trigger control , and stance and grip that don't totally suck , you're not going to hit , regardless of sighting gadgets or not .

But , if you have really mastered the use of sights , in the variety of centexts thereof , you will have a lot more ingrained technique to UN learn , before RE learning the other way .

This is where it would be ( presumably ) equal toss up to start from scratch . But the less proficient you are with the " before " , the easier to switch to something different .
 
Using a red dot does not mean unlearning irons. Its like riding a mtn bicycle and then a street bicycle. You know how to ride them both after you’ve learned how to ride them both.
I can switch between an rds gun and an iron sight gun with ease. Its not hard to do at all
 
For me red dots are a tool. Just like a weapon light (something I will use/mount if at all possible). There is a time and place for them. For me the red dot starts to pay off at around the 20 yard mark and extends to about the 100 yard mark (+/- 25 yards depending on caffeine intake that day). My front sight is usually a fiber-optic and around 20 yards it seems to take up the entire head of a silhouette target.

Also, the author said they work well in the dark better. I agree. I have and use tritium sights on some pistols. However in near total darkness I have the ability to align them wrong... that would be bad. Add that to stress and adrenaline and it just gets worse.

Now having said all of that. I like irons just fine. Inside of ten yards its more of a point and click situation so neither the iron sights or an RDS are required if the situation is dynamic. If it ever comes for me to engage a target where the red dot is the best option, I hope that it is the red dot in the middle of my LPVO and not my Glock (I know my luck and Mr. Murphy really wants to be my friend). Can I do it? I think so. Do I want to find out? No. Not really.
 
I refuse to train novices using lasers or dots. I want them to learn to use iron sights first. Dots are not a crutch, they are an enhancer when used properly.

Having attended LEO RDS for duty pistols instructor courses with fellow LEO instructors, the general consensus was that the presentation of the gun is key to finding the dot quickly. But then that is true with irons as well. I am now convinced that training with optic mounted pistols improves your iron sight performance due to improved presentation of the pistol technique.

I have put many thousands of rounds through several pistols with optics. It is an acquired skill. I am still experimenting with which size, shape, and brightness of dot is best for me but am coming down to a smaller dot. I think it is essential to have iron sights visible and co witnessed with the dot in the event the optic fails. Dots require training and practice,just like irons. Many are frustrated with the dot because they have not mastered the presentation or focal point. Keep working at it and it will fall into place.

I am of the old school in defensive shooting, which is get multiple solid hits center mass in a hurry and forget about hitting the "X". That was a big paradigm shift for this old war horse brought up on revolvers shooting for the X on the PPC. Save the "X" for competition. I remind folks of the Rule of 3's. Most lethal encounters are at 3 yards or less, 3 shots are fired, and it is over in 3 seconds or less.

I have discovered that I am capable of greater precision with iron sights, but much faster getting multiple hits center mass when using the dot. Precision shooting is still important and I practice hostage rescue drills every week to keep that part sharp. And now and again take it out to 100 yards.

Ultimately, a balance of speed, power, and accuracy wins the day and use whatever gives you an edge.
 
HayesGreener said:
I refuse to train novices using lasers or dots. I want them to learn to use iron sights first. Dots are not a crutch, they are an enhancer when used properly.

Having attended LEO RDS for duty pistols instructor courses with fellow LEO instructors, the general consensus was that the presentation of the gun is key to finding the dot quickly. But then that is true with irons as well. I am now convinced that training with optic mounted pistols improves your iron sight performance due to improved presentation of the pistol technique.

I have put many thousands of rounds through several pistols with optics. It is an acquired skill. I am still experimenting with which size, shape, and brightness of dot is best for me but am coming down to a smaller dot. I think it is essential to have iron sights visible and co witnessed with the dot in the event the optic fails. Dots require training and practice,just like irons. Many are frustrated with the dot because they have not mastered the presentation or focal point. Keep working at it and it will fall into place.

I am of the old school in defensive shooting, which is get multiple solid hits center mass in a hurry and forget about hitting the "X". That was a big paradigm shift for this old war horse brought up on revolvers shooting for the X on the PPC. Save the "X" for competition. I remind folks of the Rule of 3's. Most lethal encounters are at 3 yards or less, 3 shots are fired, and it is over in 3 seconds or less.

I have discovered that I am capable of greater precision with iron sights, but much faster getting multiple hits center mass when using the dot. Precision shooting is still important and I practice hostage rescue drills every week to keep that part sharp. And now and again take it out to 100 yards.

Ultimately, a balance of speed, power, and accuracy wins the day and use whatever gives you an edge.
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This.

Learn with irons, first and foremost. I get why people gravitate to using dots ... they just are not my cup of tea on a defensive-use pistol.

The dot however will give you options just in case you have to engage someone at distance (which LE will more likely have to do, than your average civilian).

The key is that your pistol be set up properly, so you don't find a dot any more than you find your front sight. Your dot should sit right on top of that front sight when lined up perfectly with the rear. The big advantage as I see it to a dot is that you have a more precise and smaller aiming point that can be used precisely even if not aligned perfectly with the rear sight which makes fast accuracy even faster - and therefore dots are a perfect complement for competitive handgun shooting, which I don't do.

Anything under 7 yards where most self-defense shooting takes place you are just going to point shoot anyway.
 
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