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Will I Make My Gun Jam During a Gunfight?

HayesGreener

Professional
There are some good and valid points in this video. We have seen this shooter induced malfunction in our classes a number of times, especially when the shooter is wearing body armor. We also train to clear stoppages using the rear sight or optic.

For training purposes, a few points to consider.

Training for close hip shooting (what the author calls a retention position) has several challenges. The state security officer and LE courses of fire in Florida do not include close hip shooting stages, but we teach it at 1 yard from the target in addition to the qualification course. I should point out that the state LE course does have a one hand hip shooting stage, but it is not close hip shooting.

We train the officer to present the gun to forearm length and shoot with the elbow clamped tightly against the body. This gets the gun out away from body armor and clothing but you are not handing the gun to your assailant. The draw stroke in the 4-step draw is key-on step 2 as soon as the pistol clears the holster the wrist is turned toward the target so that it is pointed in the right direction and if necessary can be fired at any point from there on. We train the officer to punch the gun forward ONLY TO THE POINT WHERE THE ELBOW IS TIGHT AGAINST THE SIDE, and fire the gun from there. We also train the officer at step 3 to use the non-gun hand up over the head as a block, unless of course it is otherwise occupied in the struggle, the idea being that your head will be pretty important if the fight continues. It is also important in this training to include movement. You don't want to be that close to the bad guy to begin with but if you have to shoot from bad breath distance, get the Hell off the "X" and put distance and cover between you and your opponent as quickly as possible. Always opt to clear stoppages from cover and distance if you can.

Ya'll be careful out there.
 

KMacK

Alpha
Why the "Appendix carry"? That is perhaps the most dangerous form of un-holstered carry, one "oops" and you're singing soprano for the rest of your life. Secondly, I've tried using a red dot on a carry pistol and in short, its worse than no sights at all. If you can't see your irons, get a laser (green). That is very visible even in noonday light. What I do agree with is the need for training when you carry concealed; there is no "natural" reflex for drawing from concealment - it has to be learned and then practiced daily, since the skill set is so fragile and easily lost.
Hint: when training to present from concealment, wear your heaviest coat for practice since that is the most likely means of messing up your draw. For me, that's a heavy padded parka, zipped shut. It took me weeks but now I can present smoothly from underneath it's concealment with no likelihood of snagging anything. Repeating: under concealed carry, daily practice is vital! You need to be able to clear any obstruction in presenting and you need to do it fast. Good article, but that appendix carry is the mark of either a gangbanger or a total noob. Yeah you may need to practice it, but don't carry that way. Please!
 

HayesGreener

Professional
Why the "Appendix carry"? That is perhaps the most dangerous form of un-holstered carry, one "oops" and you're singing soprano for the rest of your life. Secondly, I've tried using a red dot on a carry pistol and in short, its worse than no sights at all. If you can't see your irons, get a laser (green). That is very visible even in noonday light. What I do agree with is the need for training when you carry concealed; there is no "natural" reflex for drawing from concealment - it has to be learned and then practiced daily, since the skill set is so fragile and easily lost.
Hint: when training to present from concealment, wear your heaviest coat for practice since that is the most likely means of messing up your draw. For me, that's a heavy padded parka, zipped shut. It took me weeks but now I can present smoothly from underneath it's concealment with no likelihood of snagging anything. Repeating: under concealed carry, daily practice is vital! You need to be able to clear any obstruction in presenting and you need to do it fast. Good article, but that appendix carry is the mark of either a gangbanger or a total noob. Yeah you may need to practice it, but don't carry that way. Please!
I agree with your opinion on appendix carry where the gun is pointed at your femoral artery, but many are comfortable with it. It is taught in some advanced LE courses for covert carry, but I will not allow it in any of my training courses because I just cannot be sure of the competence of the student in the time allowed. If something can go wrong, it will.

I also agree that practice is crucial. Drawing the gun should be programmed into the neuromuscular memory system so firmly as to make drawing the gun an automatic, permanent memory response. If you put your gun in a safe or shelf or wherever at the end of the day, there are 365 opportunities to practice drawing the gun like you mean it per year, all safety rules in place of course.
 

Core

Operator
Founding Member
Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled "Will I Make My Gun Jam During a Gunfight?" and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/will-i-make-my-gun-jam-during-a-gunfight/.

I feel like this is an under represented subject on multiple fronts. I was recently discussing this subject with several professional tactical larpers.. When I mentioned "point shooting" they were triggered, and several started to accost me. Keep in mind these folks are social media warriors and they spend most of their time trying to figure out which camo to use on their latest custom plate carrier workup. I enjoy engaging with some of these folks because some of them bring a lot to the table as far as knowledge and experience. The majority are larpers for all intensive purposes. Several were very critical and amazed that point shooting and using muscle reflex and a downed optic tube as a point of reference is a thing. I explained that most threats to civilians will be within 15 feet or so. Having the ability to draw and fire from a compressed position or while engaging or reacting to an attack, is more likely than a 25-50 yard engagement. It amazed me at how many were perplexed. No practical sense of reality, and even if you have a 50 yard threat, is it reasonable to engage with a pistol rather than take cover and egress and call 911 for help? Of course being able to shoot 50 or maybe 100 yards is a nice and viable option with modern red dot optics on handguns, but is it ethical to engage a threat at that distance? It's very situation specific. Ultimately drawing from a compressed position while being attacked is probably the more probable scenario. And the probability of multiple attackers is much higher these days sadly. Even with a carbine point shooting is more likely, and this brought upon further confusion. After explaining to these fellas I believe I got through and they started thinking. I spent years applying these principles, and I believe we don't have enough folks out there enculturating real practical ways to prepare folks for a gunfight. It's easy to get lost in the minutia but basic operation and fundamentals need to be applied from positions under duress. I also believe I witnessed a real shooting where the victim engaged from a downed position after having been attacked: this is good stuff to train for.
 

tapehoser

Elite
I've never seen someone block the slide and shoot before. I always assumed that force was much greater than what was shown.

VERY good video. Those close situation combat scenarios freak me out. I'm generally afraid of shooting my own hand so I need to train more consistently to keep that hand against my chest.
 

HayesGreener

Professional
I've never seen someone block the slide and shoot before. I always assumed that force was much greater than what was shown.

VERY good video. Those close situation combat scenarios freak me out. I'm generally afraid of shooting my own hand so I need to train more consistently to keep that hand against my chest.
Try placing your hand on your head with elbow forward, to give your head and face more protection from a frontal assault.
 

Core

Operator
Founding Member
Hmm, I don't think I fall into either of those categories.
The worlds top special forces carry AIWB and have for decades coverty. Sassy bois for one. They designed special holsters and even put in contracts for small 9mm pistols with DAO smoothed over. Now that's a silly comment. I tend to agree many who carry SAO without thumb safeties may be putting themselves in danger if they do not reholster properly and cannot maintain finger discipline. Otherwise a Walther PPS for example has six separate safety features to prevent that striker from hitting that primer. Its literally impossible for the PPS to drop the striker if the trigger is not squeezed. Most modern pistols have similar safety features.
 

HayesGreener

Professional
The worlds top special forces carry AIWB and have for decades coverty. Sassy bois for one. They designed special holsters and even put in contracts for small 9mm pistols with DAO smoothed over. Now that's a silly comment. I tend to agree many who carry SAO without thumb safeties may be putting themselves in danger if they do not reholster properly and cannot maintain finger discipline. Otherwise a Walther PPS for example has six separate safety features to prevent that striker from hitting that primer. Its literally impossible for the PPS to drop the striker if the trigger is not squeezed. Most modern pistols have similar safety features.
Yes and they train train train every day
 

BobM

Hellcat
Try placing your hand on your head with elbow forward, to give your head and face more protection from a frontal assault.
Is good suggestion.
Keeps other hand out of the way of gunfire in close quarters when only using one hand to fire pistol and is a more defensive position for both hands. Are more than one reason for putting hand on or near head, one is blocking punches or knives. Works for me.
 

Core

Operator
Founding Member
And many of us like to train. A lot. The training regiments those guys do make us all look like we just dust ours off once a year before opening day. And that is a fact.
Frequency of training can result in complacency as much as apathy in training. Safety is about education, awareness, and mindfulness.
 

Steverino

Elite
I feel like this is an under represented subject on multiple fronts. I was recently discussing this subject with several professional tactical larpers.. When I mentioned "point shooting" they were triggered, and several started to accost me. Keep in mind these folks are social media warriors and they spend most of their time trying to figure out which camo to use on their latest custom plate carrier workup. I enjoy engaging with some of these folks because some of them bring a lot to the table as far as knowledge and experience. The majority are larpers for all intensive purposes. Several were very critical and amazed that point shooting and using muscle reflex and a downed optic tube as a point of reference is a thing. I explained that most threats to civilians will be within 15 feet or so. Having the ability to draw and fire from a compressed position or while engaging or reacting to an attack, is more likely than a 25-50 yard engagement. It amazed me at how many were perplexed. No practical sense of reality, and even if you have a 50 yard threat, is it reasonable to engage with a pistol rather than take cover and egress and call 911 for help? Of course being able to shoot 50 or maybe 100 yards is a nice and viable option with modern red dot optics on handguns, but is it ethical to engage a threat at that distance? It's very situation specific. Ultimately drawing from a compressed position while being attacked is probably the more probable scenario. And the probability of multiple attackers is much higher these days sadly. Even with a carbine point shooting is more likely, and this brought upon further confusion. After explaining to these fellas I believe I got through and they started thinking. I spent years applying these principles, and I believe we don't have enough folks out there enculturating real practical ways to prepare folks for a gunfight. It's easy to get lost in the minutia but basic operation and fundamentals need to be applied from positions under duress. I also believe I witnessed a real shooting where the victim engaged from a downed position after having been attacked: this is good stuff to train for.
Spot on! Close quarters engagement, but always with a rule of breaking contact and prolonging the distance between you and your attacker. If that means firing from your hip and aiming while indexing and continuing to do so as you walk backwards until you fully extend your firing arm outwards and have brought your sights up to your target, so be it.
Close quarters, kinetic movement firing exercises need to be broken down step by step and done ad nauseam. Also, with regards to situational awareness, be aware of where your cover is, if you need to utilize it.
I feel like this is an under represented subject on multiple fronts. I was recently discussing this subject with several professional tactical larpers.. When I mentioned "point shooting" they were triggered, and several started to accost me. Keep in mind these folks are social media warriors and they spend most of their time trying to figure out which camo to use on their latest custom plate carrier workup. I enjoy engaging with some of these folks because some of them bring a lot to the table as far as knowledge and experience. The majority are larpers for all intensive purposes. Several were very critical and amazed that point shooting and using muscle reflex and a downed optic tube as a point of reference is a thing. I explained that most threats to civilians will be within 15 feet or so. Having the ability to draw and fire from a compressed position or while engaging or reacting to an attack, is more likely than a 25-50 yard engagement. It amazed me at how many were perplexed. No practical sense of reality, and even if you have a 50 yard threat, is it reasonable to engage with a pistol rather than take cover and egress and call 911 for help? Of course being able to shoot 50 or maybe 100 yards is a nice and viable option with modern red dot optics on handguns, but is it ethical to engage a threat at that distance? It's very situation specific. Ultimately drawing from a compressed position while being attacked is probably the more probable scenario. And the probability of multiple attackers is much higher these days sadly. Even with a carbine point shooting is more likely, and this brought upon further confusion. After explaining to these fellas I believe I got through and they started thinking. I spent years applying these principles, and I believe we don't have enough folks out there enculturating real practical ways to prepare folks for a gunfight. It's easy to get lost in the minutia but basic operation and fundamentals need to be applied from positions under duress. I also believe I witnessed a real shooting where the victim engaged from a downed position after having been attacked: this is good stuff to train for.
 

Core

Operator
Founding Member
Spot on! Close quarters engagement, but always with a rule of breaking contact and prolonging the distance between you and your attacker. If that means firing from your hip and aiming while indexing and continuing to do so as you walk backwards until you fully extend your firing arm outwards and have brought your sights up to your target, so be it.
Close quarters, kinetic movement firing exercises need to be broken down step by step and done ad nauseam. Also, with regards to situational awareness, be aware of where your cover is, if you need to utilize it.
I was trained to be offensive, walking backwards while shooting from the hip is not in my toolkit. I'll have to lookup "kinetic movement firing." Good advice on cover.
 
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