Bassbob
Emissary
Well, we weren't talking about what may or may not be in the truck.
Would You Make This Deadly Gunfight Mistake?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Same hereWell, we weren't talking about what may or may not be in the truck.
BassCliff
Professional
Hi,
Yes, lots of good stuff in this article. Pretty much all of it agrees with all the training I've taken over the last few years. I've always trained with at least one spare magazine on my belt, using both "tactical" reload (sometimes called "combat" reload) and "emergency" reload (or "slide lock" reload).
One thing the article doesn't mention that my instructors have stressed in our training is "getting off the X". In other words, don't just stand there while you reload. Take a step or two laterally in either direction. This could help your adversary miss. I know some folks might consider this a useless "tactical dance" move but why be a stationary target, especially when you're not able to toss lead back?
Another point mentioned in the article was the vertical versus horizontal magazine carriers. I happen to like my horizontal carrier and have trained extensively with it. It "indexes" into the mag well just fine.
If I want to use an additional vertical mag holder, or two, I can but it's not my normal EDC.
I also have a double pouch that I usually wear only at the range when we have to carry at least three or four magazines to run all our drills.
As we're working out on the range I will usually pull a mag from the back pouch and slip it into the side pouch during a lull in the action. That way I'm always pulling my reload mag from the same spot. But I have practiced reloading directly form the back pouch. The horizontal magazine on the side of my belt is covered very well with just a t-shirt.
My instructors have always taught us about "three to five shots at three to five yards" but it's really hard to find a definitive origin for that statistic. I did a cursory search and found a few references.
The Personal Defense Network tries to look at FBI data (LEOKA stats) to find "The Rule Of Threes":
www.personaldefensenetwork.com
In this CCW Safe article instructor Tom Givens compiled data using his own students involved in civilian sector "gunfights":
ccwsafe.com
This Lucky Gunner article compiles trends from several sources and discusses "The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight":
If you'd like to pour over the allegedly real FBI data, here is their "Crime Data Explorer":
I think the "Rule of Threes" is akin to the origin of the Tueller drill. They're not bad things, good training exercises, but probably grew out of a combination of fact, myths, legends, hearsay, misinterpretation, and imagination.
I'm just an old noob who always carries a spare magazine, and likes to ramble.
Thank you for your indulgence,
BassCliff
Yes, lots of good stuff in this article. Pretty much all of it agrees with all the training I've taken over the last few years. I've always trained with at least one spare magazine on my belt, using both "tactical" reload (sometimes called "combat" reload) and "emergency" reload (or "slide lock" reload).
One thing the article doesn't mention that my instructors have stressed in our training is "getting off the X". In other words, don't just stand there while you reload. Take a step or two laterally in either direction. This could help your adversary miss. I know some folks might consider this a useless "tactical dance" move but why be a stationary target, especially when you're not able to toss lead back?
Another point mentioned in the article was the vertical versus horizontal magazine carriers. I happen to like my horizontal carrier and have trained extensively with it. It "indexes" into the mag well just fine.
If I want to use an additional vertical mag holder, or two, I can but it's not my normal EDC.
I also have a double pouch that I usually wear only at the range when we have to carry at least three or four magazines to run all our drills.
As we're working out on the range I will usually pull a mag from the back pouch and slip it into the side pouch during a lull in the action. That way I'm always pulling my reload mag from the same spot. But I have practiced reloading directly form the back pouch. The horizontal magazine on the side of my belt is covered very well with just a t-shirt.
My instructors have always taught us about "three to five shots at three to five yards" but it's really hard to find a definitive origin for that statistic. I did a cursory search and found a few references.
The Personal Defense Network tries to look at FBI data (LEOKA stats) to find "The Rule Of Threes":
What does the FBI say about Gunfight Statistics?
Learn about gunfight statistics based on the FBI data in this article from Personal Defense Network.
www.personaldefensenetwork.com
In this CCW Safe article instructor Tom Givens compiled data using his own students involved in civilian sector "gunfights":
The Rule Of Threes
Three yards, three rounds, three seconds. According to my friend, mentor, and master defensive firearms instructor Tom Givens, most gunfights involving civilians and felons takes place at a distance of approximately three to five yards, approximately three and one-half rounds are fired, and no
ccwsafe.com
This Lucky Gunner article compiles trends from several sources and discusses "The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight":
The True Distance of a Typical Gunfight - Lucky Gunner Lounge
How far apart does the typical gunfight happen? We analyze police and other data to determine the distance in this article.
www.luckygunner.com
If you'd like to pour over the allegedly real FBI data, here is their "Crime Data Explorer":
I think the "Rule of Threes" is akin to the origin of the Tueller drill. They're not bad things, good training exercises, but probably grew out of a combination of fact, myths, legends, hearsay, misinterpretation, and imagination.
I'm just an old noob who always carries a spare magazine, and likes to ramble.
Thank you for your indulgence,
BassCliff
bc22wm
Custom
"I carry a reload because it just makes sense." Bassbob
Reloads? Of course you need to carry reloads. A box maybe two. Ya never know when you will be driving past some gravel pit and see a bunch of buddies shooting beer cans and what not. Well ya can't help but stop by and chew the fat, ( don't want em to think you're stuck up or somein) maybe shoot some, and ya don't want to go home with an empty gun do ya?
Reloads? Of course you need to carry reloads. A box maybe two. Ya never know when you will be driving past some gravel pit and see a bunch of buddies shooting beer cans and what not. Well ya can't help but stop by and chew the fat, ( don't want em to think you're stuck up or somein) maybe shoot some, and ya don't want to go home with an empty gun do ya?
DevilDog0302
Alpha
One small point regarding magazine pouches/carriers: Yes, open pouches are quicker for reloading than those with flaps. However, when carried on a duty or cartridge belt, flaps keep the magazines from falling out when you change body position (e.g., seeking cover or just making a baton strike). Speed vs. retention is a trade-off worth considering.
Bassbob
Emissary
Many open top mag carriers have retention. Even adjustable retention.
Vietnam Vet
Alpha
It's been decades since I was in a fire fight and it was back when we stilled carried revolvers as our duty weapons. I won in that exchange and it was due to hours of practice. I carry my 1911 and I practice the mentioned drills on a regular basis. I'm not of the school of doing tactical reloads. Rather I reload when my magazine is empty, slide held back. Much faster reloads that way. I use the method described in the article to grab my new mag and insert into the mag well. Works every time. The best way to not have to worry about these things is situational awareness and stay out of danger when at all possible. As far as every report regarding police involved shootings I've ever seen, cops will fire however many rounds are in their particular weapon. I'm sure it's gotten better over the years, but some people are always a bit jumpy and never master that calm that is needed in a fire fight. The best way to get to that point is practice, practice, practice, until you no longer have to think about what to do. It just happens, just like hitting a pitch. Keep your eye on the ball.
HayesGreener
Hellcat
The "Rule of 3's" is a term used in LEO Firearms Training circles to emphasize the MOST LIKELY way a shooting will play out: It will occur at 3 yards or less, 3 rounds or less are fired, and it is over in 3 seconds or less. Borne out in my personal experience. Certainly many shootings occur outside those parameters and training and equipment must take that into account. Fast reloads in the workspace are an essential skill. But training time is precious, so when developing training programs and drills you place the emphasis on the most likely scenarios. Gone are the days when 50 yard strings would make or break you in qualifications; most LEO qualification courses do not range beyond 15 yards any more. The emphasis now is multiple hits center mass very quickly.
For civilians, consider where you are most likely to encounter an armed assailant. In the parking lot, at the ATM, an attempted carjacking or abduction, someone attempting to force their way into your home, etc. It is most likely going to be close and frantic.
My profile banner illustrates the Rule of 3's. I always end my training sessions with Mozambique drills, then move back to 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards to keep those skills alive.
That's the view from my saddle.
For civilians, consider where you are most likely to encounter an armed assailant. In the parking lot, at the ATM, an attempted carjacking or abduction, someone attempting to force their way into your home, etc. It is most likely going to be close and frantic.
My profile banner illustrates the Rule of 3's. I always end my training sessions with Mozambique drills, then move back to 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards to keep those skills alive.
That's the view from my saddle.
The Night Rider
Professional
They make horizontal magazine pouches with retention devices. Please note the screw right between the two magazines
The Night Rider
Professional
I normally carry at least one reload.
There was a guy who used to post on two different forms that I participate in. He worked as a cop and as a magistrate in South Carolina.
During his career he investigated or adjudicated over 200 homicides. During that time he said he was aware of one that went over 10 Rounds.
In that one instance he quoted the medical examiner as saying the victim was dead by the second round and that the murderer had simply stood over the body doing a monkey dance and unloaded his magazine into the corpse.
I quote Tom Givens a lot, as far as I know he's the only person who's compiled a database of private citizen involved shootings.
His database isn't huge but it's the only one I can find and in the shootings that he's tabulated the total rounds fired was anywhere between 3 and 11 and usually within two car lengths distance.
I've said this a lot here but almost every single time that I had a run in with a crackhead it was in a parking lot after dark.
There's a lesson in that if you look for it
There was a guy who used to post on two different forms that I participate in. He worked as a cop and as a magistrate in South Carolina.
During his career he investigated or adjudicated over 200 homicides. During that time he said he was aware of one that went over 10 Rounds.
In that one instance he quoted the medical examiner as saying the victim was dead by the second round and that the murderer had simply stood over the body doing a monkey dance and unloaded his magazine into the corpse.
I quote Tom Givens a lot, as far as I know he's the only person who's compiled a database of private citizen involved shootings.
His database isn't huge but it's the only one I can find and in the shootings that he's tabulated the total rounds fired was anywhere between 3 and 11 and usually within two car lengths distance.
I've said this a lot here but almost every single time that I had a run in with a crackhead it was in a parking lot after dark.
There's a lesson in that if you look for it
old but still kicking
Elite
Well said - hard to object to any of that .. you LEOs are already behind the power curve for action/reaction gap time w/ force on force scenarios so if one of y’all posts about this subject, we should weigh it more heavily than what some internet clown says .
That reminds me .. if ur ever attacked by a bunch of clowns, go for the juggler ..
CaptVanO
Alpha
I read about it in a print article. I wish I could find it on line.
bc22wm
Custom
jumpinjoe
Hellcat
And unfortunately not necessarily for the better!!!