9mm vs. 40 – Is the .40 Caliber a Better Handgun Cartridge?

[CCJ]

Do you have a link to that study ?

it a book... the study lasted two years and produced thousands of pages of documentation.
here's a link to the book....

Forensic Analysis Of The April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight

One of the deadliest firefights in the history of the FBI occurred in 1986 in Miami, Florida. Lasting more than four minutes, the fight claimed the lives of two FBI agents and two extremely violent master criminals and severely injured five other FBI agents. On the 10th anniversary of the...

books.google.com

Title	Forensic Analysis Of The April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight
Author	W. French Anderson
Edition	illustrated
Publisher	Paladin Press, 2006
ISBN	1581604904, 9781581604900
Length	152 pages

this stems form the fact that, during the 1986 shootout, Platt killed two agents and seriously wounded several others over a three minute period after being solidly hit in the chest with a 9mm round. Forensically, the wound did not allow for a rapid drop in blood pressure due to the fact that the skin closed up around the entrance wound.

 

[Android17ak47]

40 S&W FTW! /thread... oh yeah and Federal HST FTW as well

 

[FNFAN]

I carried a .45 LW Commander before my first retirement and was issued a G23 in .40 for the job I retired from two years ago. When I was shooting lots of Steel Challenge the .40 G22 was my favorite as it combined higher capacity with decisive hits on falling steel. I gave my Browning Hi Power .40 to my son for a post-deployment gift and still miss it. I've moved on and am all in on the Wilson EDC X9 and X9s if carrying an auto.

With modern ammo the 9MM 'poodle shooter" is a fine defensive round. For a camping gun I carry a .44 with lighter magnum loads. I did pick up a very sweet SIG 239 SAS that happened to be in .40 (in theory) for when I want to appendix carry but mostly because it's a neat little gun that was a smokin' deal.

Modern ammo has very much evened out the field for duty rounds. If I were back in a patrol car and given the choice I would probably pick the .40 due to slightly better penetration through auto glass and barriers, but I wouldn't turn down the job if mandated to carry a 9MM.

 

[HansGruber]

it a book... the study lasted two years and produced thousands of pages of documentation.
here's a link to the book....

Forensic Analysis Of The April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight

One of the deadliest firefights in the history of the FBI occurred in 1986 in Miami, Florida. Lasting more than four minutes, the fight claimed the lives of two FBI agents and two extremely violent master criminals and severely injured five other FBI agents. On the 10th anniversary of the...

books.google.com

Title	Forensic Analysis Of The April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight
Author	W. French Anderson
Edition	illustrated
Publisher	Paladin Press, 2006
ISBN	1581604904, 9781581604900
Length	152 pages

this stems form the fact that, during the 1986 shootout, Platt killed two agents and seriously wounded several others over a three minute period after being solidly hit in the chest with a 9mm round. Forensically, the wound did not allow for a rapid drop in blood pressure due to the fact that the skin closed up around the entrance wound.

Direct quote and page, please.

 

[CCJ]

Direct quote and page, please.

If you want to call me a liar without doing one ounce or work so you can retain your views of the world... you are fee to do that. You are free not to believe me... Read the book. It's buried in their somewhere. Read it and draw your own conclusion...

It is why the felt that they needed to move to a larger caliber.

 

[Bassbob]

That FBI study is pretty well known. So are the reasons for 9mm ammo from back then being inadequate. This is the first time I’ve heard anyone make the claim that the wound channel closed itself off. I mean even if that were true it’s not going to stop blood loss from vital internal organs.

 

[CCJ]

That FBI study is pretty well known. So are the reasons for 9mm ammo from back then being inadequate. This is the first time I’ve heard anyone make the claim that the wound channel closed itself off. I mean even if that were true it’s not going to stop blood loss from vital internal organs."

"closed off" as in restricted due to the ability of skin (elasticity) to restrict a small hole (such as created by a 9mm) to reduce/impede the loss of blood to the point that blood pressure remains viable for Consciousness.

There are limits to the bodies ability to restrict holes and .40/10mm seem to exceed that ability.

While it is true that damage to internal organs will increase the overall blood loss and does pay a significant role in incapacitating an individual, fluid pressure will also act as a restriction/impedance to blood flow... i.e, the weight of the fluid (blood) pressing against atrial structures acts as a compress. As the body cavities fill up the pressure also increases. But I think the point in the FBI findings is that internal damage is not a given and the wound channel itself, if properly sized, will enable an incapacitating wound. Now, there are endless scenarios about the capabilities of any particular calibers to do, or not do the intended. The diameter of the 9mm entry wound was just one of the many, many items singled out by the FBI as fixable. Hence, the move to .40

 

[The Night Rider]

My favorite movie I got a model 27 because it looks like Dirty Harry but without the recoil View attachment 62638

I remember reading an article in the American Rifleman that the Dirty Harry franchise actually saved the Model 29 from Extinction.

Apparently, nobody was buying them and then Dirty Harry came out and everybody wanted one.

 

[Warrior9(Ret)]

I bought a Para-Ordnance Double Stack 1911 Government model in 45 ACP. It was a promotional package with 4 magazines.
This is when they first launched.in the early 90s.
Slow fire was easy to control but the grip circumference was too much even for my big hands when I attempted speed drills and double taps.
I sold it and gave the money to my wife.
I’ll stick with a stock single stack 1911 in 45 ACP.

 

[Fred613]

I agree with so much as what has been said in this thread. Civilians and police officers carry firearms differently. The civilian wants a smaller firearm for concealment; the police officer carries his/her’s openly and therefor can carry a larger and more powerful caliber.

When I retired as a Leo firearms instructor in 2015, the push was already on to switch back to the 9mm. At that time we carried the Sig 229 in 40 S&W. The heavier aluminum frame helped with recoil management. But, we we already hearing simply silly things from the Budget bean counters that “well you know ammo is getting cheaper.” Funny, but they did not like to be corrected. Yes, the 40 was simply more expensive than the 9mm.

The Maryland police and Training Academy sets the minimum standards for all Agencies in Maryland. They mandated 40 hours and a minimum of 800 rounds fired. Myself and the other firearms staff were ex tactical/swat guys and we took our training very seriously. The end result was just over three weeks of training and six to eight thousand rounds per student.

Gone were the height and weight requirements. In one case we had a young female who probably weighed 105 pounds, and was not strong enough to hold the firearms out in front of her for any length of time.

During the first day of the academy, all students were tested with a blue firearm ( same as what they would carry but rendered safe) to do fifty trigger presses left and right handed. The purpose was to identify those students who were weak in this area, then provide them with a mock pistol for them to practice with to help them develop the strength needed to qualify by the time they entered their firearms training.

The same candidate mentioned, by the time we got her in firearms training, had to use two fingers to fire her handgun weak handed. Our supervisor made excuses for her and did not want to listen to the trainers who said she would be a liability if hired. Worse, to help the small stature recruits that had anticipation problems, he began offering them the 229 chambered in the 9mm.

I’m sure the seasoned shooters here can see the blatant problem with having the same firearm issued in two different calibers put out on the streets. Worse, some of the veterans who qualified regularly but were marginal, also asked for a 229 in 9mm. The supervisor refused, stating that it was his decision on a case by case basis.

I argued that now he had liability for allowing some shooter to have the smaller caliber to promote better scores while disallowing it for others. I was basically told to shut my mouth. I felt sorry for my supervisor, he was a long time friend of mine from our swat days, that now he was being forced to lower standards to meet quotas. I was just out of the academy in 1979 and was with my Training Officer on our second night of 3 to 11. That day my partner was shot through the shoulder and lung with a 12 guage slug. The next one caught in in my gun hand. When I woke up after being flown to Shock Trauma, the nurse was happy to inform me that I still had a hand and that they didn’t have to cut it off.

I was out for two years, through therapy five days a week and five more operations. I pray for the men and women every day and I am grateful to be retired after thirty-six years of service. I took the training very seriously for the recruits, I knew what could be awaiting them on the streets, and I was never willing to compromise good and proper training just to check off recruitment achievement blocks.

 

[TedB]

I just want to reiterate my point that the requirements of the FBI or other police, security, or military agencies are not necessarily appropriate for civilian use.

There is a very strong tendency in the online firearms community to assume that what military, security, and police agencies decide is best suited to their needs is automatically what works best for civilians, when it may not only not work best, but may be totally inappropriate for civilians.

The fact of the matter is that most civilian defensive uses of firearms have little to do with the situations in which LEOs may need to fire their weapons, despite the wild scenarios that often rear their outlandish heads in gun forum sites.

One glaring fact is that in some states, the usage of hollowpoint ammunition by civilians in a carry weapon outside the home or a shooting range is illegal, and that changes things considerably.

I never figured out why our department was worried about terminal performance after shooting through auto glass and car bodies- since our use of force policy strictly forbade shooting at/into cars….. (There was an incident a couple of years before I started where a kid was shot (fortunately not seriously injured) in a car because the officer couldn’t see it and was shooting at the driver in the car. After that our General Orders changed.)

 

[Hawgleg44]

I remember reading an article in the American Rifleman that the Dirty Harry franchise actually saved the Model 29 from Extinction.

Apparently, nobody was buying them and then Dirty Harry came out and everybody wanted one.

Even me. Nothing like an 8 3/8".

 

[TedB]

A wise friend and mentor of mine once said "a 9mm may or may not expand.... BUT- a .45 will never compress..."

The same can be said of a .40, even though it is only 1mm in diameter larger than a 9mm, it's still 11.2% larger in diameter...

But to be clear, the average police shooting tends to be more dynamic than a civilian self-defense shooting.

However, in both cases only hits matter- AND every bullet that is fired has an attorney attached to it. So whatever caliber & platform that an individual shoots best is the correct choice for what they carry.

 

[ECS686]

I never figured out why our department was worried about terminal performance after shooting through auto glass and car bodies- since our use of force policy strictly forbade shooting at/into cars….. (There was an incident a couple of years before I started where a kid was shot (fortunately not seriously injured) in a car because the officer couldn’t see it and was shooting at the driver in the car. After that our General Orders changed.)

While that’s silly to make an across the border change because of one incident which was more “bad stuff can happen” I get maybe moving vehicles but whatever.

As far as barrier blind performance it is desirable wether you expect to shoot at cars or not there’s still a chance of encountering barriers as you are around buildings/doors/windows uiu might have to go through etc and in winter how much heavy clothing is normal in your area etc!

 

[ECS686]

A wise friend and mentor of mine once said "a 9mm may or may not expand.... BUT- a .45 will never compress..."

The same can be said of a .40, even though it is only 1mm in diameter larger than a 9mm, it's still 11.2% larger in diameter...

But to be clear, the average police shooting tends to be more dynamic than a civilian self-defense shooting.

However, in both cases only hits matter- AND every bullet that is fired has an attorney attached to it. So whatever caliber & platform that an individual shoots best is the correct choice for what they carry.

The larger diameter idea is simply a thoery that it would cut a vital if it was close where a smaller round wouldn’t. A antiquated carry over from PPc matches and wadcutters were you got credit for the higher point if the line is cut.

While there are some dynamic LE shootings in a LOT of cases (not all we can always find a Banknof America type but they are rare thankfully) they become dynamic because Officers fail to make viable hits.

Any body cam shows if it goes more than 5-7 rounds it becomes a mag dunp and the perp of hit at all it’s a graze on the elbow or ankle .

While the 9mm is adequate and works the 45 is something for serious folks that want to put in the time to practice. The 9mm is more forgiving and police administrators are all over that as they want to cut training $$ so if they even have proficiency trainjng it costs half as much with 9mm equipped agencies as it does 45 acp departments.

Bottom line it don’t matter what you carry a non vital hit is not stopping them!

 

[HansGruber]

The larger diameter idea is simply a thoery that it would cut a vital if it was close where a smaller round wouldn’t. A antiquated carry over from PPc matches and wadcutters were you got credit for the higher point if the line is cut.

While there are some dynamic LE shootings in a LOT of cases (not all we can always find a Banknof America type but they are rare thankfully) they become dynamic because Officers fail to make viable hits.

Any body cam shows if it goes more than 5-7 rounds it becomes a mag dunp and the perp of hit at all it’s a graze on the elbow or ankle .

While the 9mm is adequate and works the 45 is something for serious folks that want to put in the time to practice. The 9mm is more forgiving and police administrators are all over that as they want to cut training $$ so if they even have proficiency trainjng it costs half as much with 9mm equipped agencies as it does 45 acp departments.

Bottom line it don’t matter what you carry a non vital hit is not stopping them!

Fact is, though—most gunfights end with non-vital hits.

Psychological stops—that is, stopping the fight after a non-vital hit, because your brain tells you to stop—is a very, very common result; far more common than gunfights needing a truly “anchoring” wound.

 

[ECS686]

Fact is, though—most gunfights end with non-vital hits.

Psychological stops—that is, stopping the fight after a non-vital hit, because your brain tells you to stop—is a very, very common result; far more common than gunfights needing a truly “anchoring” wound.

While not incorrect there’s a whole lot more to it. Yes non vitals as the bullet it’s self didn’t shut it down due to blood loss or CNS function however psychologically stopping isn’t as much why all of them give up. (There is thoery in the 357 mag 125 pre flash retardant days sure as your throwing a flash bang at the dude)

I have seen several one we hit with an M4 through the pelvis and man many others they still was a struggle to get cuffs on them. That’s not psychological stop. A lot of closeup gunfights end up going hands on after rounds are fired for a multitude of reasons.

So while there I something to what your saying there is never any absolutes.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Actually, simultaneously issuing essentially identical firearms in different calibers isn't a problem. ( Considering P228 and P229 as essentially identical. )