Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/ayoob-is-45-still-better-than-9mm/.
Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Annihilator
Hellion
Not a really fan of Ayoob, but to me to compare the 9mm to .45 is mundane, I remember years ago the cartridge of competition shooters was the .38super mostly. If I still shot bowling pins like I did many moons ago, I’ll still use the .45. So to me it comes down to what your comfortable with, just my thoughts
The 38 Super shined when folks wanted major power factor in a high cap open gun (or at least that is how the rules made it when I started USPSA in the early/mid 90’s when there were 2 divisions) 38 Super for Open and 40 was the hotness for limited.
The 38 Super is a great round in the original loading
But 45 or 9….its a wash yea the 9mm had been made better with companies getting the expansion and penitrarion down with its sectional density and velocity that haven’t transferred to as much improvement across the board to the 45 with the exception of 2 rounds. HST and Critical Duty.
The biggest argument I hear with the folks that are 9mm dans other tjan faster follow-up shots (not sure what a .33 split will do that a .50 won’t outside of a match but whatever folks get sriven in such thins) people can’t help but bring up mag capacity and to me a lot of folks seem to have bought into capacity capacity capacity.
To the point uiu can’t mention a Glock 48 and someone not asked has to preach 15 round shield mags like the gospel….newsflash some of us got 10 round Glock 48’s for the purpose of mag restrictive states.
You can find cases where either 9 or 45 failed pick one you can shoot well and do you. I have been mandated to carry both and don’t care it’s a tool period. Get good with your tool.
Paratrooper
Alpha
9mm magazine capacity is the excuse many fall for. ParaOrdnance (great handgun, not *good enough* business plan) can still be found, but current production FN FNX Tactical, Glock 25, Remington 1911 R1 all provide that double stack high capacity in .45 caliber. Recoil can be managed - - my daughter is 5'3" weighs 115 pounds and has *that size* hands but she has been shooting a .45 since age 12, and is a very capable, accurate shooter. Ammo cost can be managed also. Dry fire, BB gun, pellet gun, air soft or .22 caliber (Ruger Mark IV 22/45 is a truly wonderful device) in combination can provide hours of fun and many thousands of *rounds fired* for basic skill development/retention - - then transition to .45 to confirm that skill. Firearms skill is firearms skill, and can transfer from one weapon to another - - Sergeant York had never fired a 1911 .45 before he came in the Army.
Paratrooper
Alpha
correction to typo, Glock 21 not 25
Oldmountaiman
Elite
when I was a deputy our duty weapon was a S&W Model 19 my bug was Colt 1911 but that was the days B4 SWAT teams. Off duty I carried my 41 mag but prior to that I really liked the 45lc my grandpa introduced me to. I have a couple of 9s but after a competition there was a demonstration by a instructor and he took a 9 and shot at wrecked car and the hardball 9s recoshad off the windshield. Then the cost factor came up and he stated that if you used 2 to 3 rounds to do the job of one. Every 3 months we had to qualify with our duty and off duty weapon. Now that all boils down to the final statement which was shoot what you use and use what you shoot. That's something that stuck with me and many others that were there that day. The Sheriff said to us was make sure you qualified know your weapon because if you don't you will have desk Duty I don't want to go tell your family that you're in the hospital or the morgue. I still believe in his message and hate hearing 40 rounds were fired and the bad guy was not hit. Every one should choose what they comfortable with including the ammo. Well that's it from the old guy that young folk pay no mind.
My gripe with all of these 9 to .45 comparisons is they all seem to go with a medium weight bullet for the 9mm and the heaviest weight bullet for the .45. If you’re going with 124 grain 9mm, why not go with 185 grain in the .45? I personally prefer 185 grain +P rounds in my.45s. Love me some 1911s.
If you look at calibers in 9 the 124’s have proven to be at the top and work as manufacturers built them (penitrarion and expansion) in a variety of barrel lengths from 3” pocket to 5” duty. Where as the 45 there is really only a coulle 185’s that have proven to be as good as a 230 grain. Yo have a couoke 185’s (the Silvertip is a dismal performer in 45 acp) and there’s the 200 grain Gold Dot that has performed well for Denver when that was the 45 load they mandated (not sure when and if it’s changed)
Roadrunner
Elite
Well said,sometimes it's how you shoot something not what you shoot,a well shot 9mm will be more effective than a badly shot .45,just as an example
I remember from the revolver days it wasn’t uncommon to see a bunch of Military and or NRA and NRA Pistol or PPC bumper stickers in station parking lots (I am talking 80’s and early 90’s this isn’t about current NRA politics so don’t make it that works with me)
We shot PPC or combat type shoots and matches where accuracy and being deliberate was driven into us.
That said the marksmanship trainjng is lacking. Most agemcies don’t promote matches or give proficiency ammo out. Nobody knows what a NRA Distinguished Shootwrnis anymore and when kids get into a shooting the go fast fairy of shoot til the threat goes away takes over.
John Hearne had an excellent take on it through his studies. Anything more than 4-6 rounds usually end up in a mag dump and the bad guy if he is even hit it’s an ankle or elbow. And body camera footage they are squeezing their gun so much it looks like they are milking a cow!
It don’t matter if you have a 22 uiu are not making effective hits so 45 vs 9 is a moot point!
Pitdogg2
Professional
The original Corbon made a very nice 165gr .45acp round in the 90's. It was a very capable flying ash tray. I forget who made the bullet, I stoked my .45's with them.
Speer gold dot performs well, Remington golden Saber is a pretty good round, Barnes Vor-Tx is another good choice. All I’m saying is don’t compare the best choice of 9mm ammo with a round that isn’t the best performer in .45 caliber.
Oldmountaiman
Elite
The 60s when I was a Deputy were different from what your relating to and no NRA toilet paper at our office or department vehicles. Time changes a lot of standards in rules, laws and equipment.
TurboDog910
Elite
I’d prefer to not “find out”.
Winchester67
Custom
Ayoob is, dare I say it, a National Treasure. He asks a lot of the hard questions from a perspective that can not be ignored. And he has police contacts that enable him to explore actual case histories. He speaks the truth. I have followed him since he was championing the 41 Magnum in the early days of American Handgunner magazine. He is a straight shooter. I have met him many times in my previous job life, but I am quite sure he does not remember everyone he met at the SHOT Show. When he writes, you should listen.
Winchester67
Custom
Gents, we grew up in the early days of bullet development. There is no question in my mind that the 9mm with a modern bullet design is WAY beyond the days when Col Cooper condemned it. Having said that, I still believe in the .45 ACP because it does not count on bullet design...even in "hardball" form it is formidable. If the bullet works as designed, the 9 MM is a great performer. But if the modern bullet design fails, the 45 still works. If a modern 45 works as designed, its performance is remarkable. But if the bullet fails....it is still 45 hardball. Which has worked in two World Wars, in Korea, and in Vietnam to protect out boys when everything gets close. My Uncle Bill was close lipped about being one of the Frozen Chosin...but he believed in the .45 ACP. That is good enough for me...with the bayonet scar on his face from the night a Chicom fell into his foxhole.
Annihilator
Hellion
I read his stuff occasionally, but not a fan, to me he just comes off he knows best all others should just agree with him, sorry, that’s how I feel
Winchester67
Custom
Well, he is a well connected writer and has been accepted as an acknowledged expert in court as a witness. He grew up around guns and has served for a LONG time as a Peace Officer. What other author pray tell meets your qualifications as a man worth reading?!?