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More Sig 320 drama

I’d like to hear from current, active duty LEO’s on this forum.
What are the standards for firearm training in boot camp and the follow up, regular proficiency to continue to qualify to carry a loaded gun, all day, everyday 🧐🧐🧐
Frequency?
Round count yearly?

Talking patrol cop.
Not SWAT
 
I’d like to hear from current, active duty LEO’s on this forum.
What are the standards for firearm training in boot camp and the follow up, regular proficiency to continue to qualify to carry a loaded gun, all day, everyday 🧐🧐🧐
Frequency?
Round count yearly?

Talking patrol cop.
Not SWAT
I'm not a cop but I can tell you it varies by department.
 
I'm not a cop but I can tell you it varies by department.
Of course

I just want to hear how high or low on avg standards are for cops to carry a firearm.

I went thru boot camp for Ft Worth and was an LEO for a super brief timeline. I got headhunted for 4x salary & more, I left.

My point is, lets hear from current police and how strict and stringent proficiency with a firearm really is.
Ft worth 25 yrs ago, it was a joke
 
Of course

I just want to hear how high or low on avg standards are for cops to carry a firearm.

I went thru boot camp for Ft Worth and was an LEO for a super brief timeline. I got headhunted for 4x salary & more, I left.

My point is, lets hear from current police and how strict and stringent proficiency with a firearm really is.
Ft worth 25 yrs ago, it was a joke
18 months and fat AF and stupid and you can be an STL cop I can tell you that.
 
18 months and fat AF and stupid and you can be an STL cop I can tell you that.
I can make it!
IMG_0159.jpeg
 
What does it matter how many threads there are? Do we get charged per new thread?

I think important news warrants its own new thread for the headline alone. Don't you think? Why are you so focused on how many threads there are? Don't you worry, this forum is backed by a MySQL database which can surely handle the extra thread. I promise you.

Edit: Spoiler alert: If another 320 goes off tomorrow at another school, guess what you're getting? That's right, a NEW THREAD.
200w.gif
 
I’d like to hear from current, active duty LEO’s on this forum.
What are the standards for firearm training in boot camp and the follow up, regular proficiency to continue to qualify to carry a loaded gun, all day, everyday 🧐🧐🧐
Frequency?
Round count yearly?

Talking patrol cop.
Not SWAT
I am retired from the Feds and was an instructor and on a SORT team and trainer thwre, I also am a Deputy for a school system and a state LE academy Instructor.

No matter where it always seems to be around an 10% 80% 10% breakdown on firearms proficiency.

Top 10% shoot a lot and seek out other than agency training on their own time and dime like Rangemaster, Gunsite and national level trainers

80% while some in that crowd are near the top the majority and average with a lot barely qualifying each year by 10-15 points or less and are the ones that quip “good enough til next year”

And the bottom 10% is who gets agencies to dumb down and ease requirements that has become “no cop left behind” era

The majority of the 80% and all of the bottom 10% only touch their gun to holster it and only shokt it at qualification day!

And last time I assisted at the academy it seems the days of someone failing the academy because they can’t qualify are gone as the powers that run it have them come back for remedial!

If I had my way, I would do away with the huge B27 sized targets that have a huge unrealistic area where they get full value credit for hits that if those were on a normal human would be a graze of the side. Move the X ring up to the heart/Aorta region.

I would require them to shoot the Bakersfield Qual every 2 weeks and alternate with a 5 yard roundup and assessment drill all on B8’s and require an 80 or they drive a desk until they oss.

On a lighter note I know Indianapolis PD if a LEO fails they have a reboot with their Sgt if they fail that a reshoot with their LT if a fail thwre they are pulled from the street without pay and they schedule whem they want a remedial class to get our and if the don’t pass them discipline is started as well as termination proceedings

So while a few agencies handle it most are making it so easy it’s why we see body came video of shootings turn into abortions!

Usually if it goes more tjan 4-7 rounds it’s a mag dunp with maybe a non vital ankle or elbow hit and a lot of walls, windows buildings or vehicles shewed up!
 
I am retired from the Feds and was an instructor and on a SORT team and trainer thwre, I also am a Deputy for a school system and a state LE academy Instructor.

No matter where it always seems to be around an 10% 80% 10% breakdown on firearms proficiency.

Top 10% shoot a lot and seek out other than agency training on their own time and dime like Rangemaster, Gunsite and national level trainers

80% while some in that crowd are near the top the majority and average with a lot barely qualifying each year by 10-15 points or less and are the ones that quip “good enough til next year”

And the bottom 10% is who gets agencies to dumb down and ease requirements that has become “no cop left behind” era

The majority of the 80% and all of the bottom 10% only touch their gun to holster it and only shokt it at qualification day!

And last time I assisted at the academy it seems the days of someone failing the academy because they can’t qualify are gone as the powers that run it have them come back for remedial!

If I had my way, I would do away with the huge B27 sized targets that have a huge unrealistic area where they get full value credit for hits that if those were on a normal human would be a graze of the side. Move the X ring up to the heart/Aorta region.

I would require them to shoot the Bakersfield Qual every 2 weeks and alternate with a 5 yard roundup and assessment drill all on B8’s and require an 80 or they drive a desk until they oss.

On a lighter note I know Indianapolis PD if a LEO fails they have a reboot with their Sgt if they fail that a reshoot with their LT if a fail thwre they are pulled from the street without pay and they schedule whem they want a remedial class to get our and if the don’t pass them discipline is started as well as termination proceedings

So while a few agencies handle it most are making it so easy it’s why we see body came video of shootings turn into abortions!

Usually if it goes more tjan 4-7 rounds it’s a mag dunp with maybe a non vital ankle or elbow hit and a lot of walls, windows buildings or vehicles shewed up!
Is it fair to state that the majority of law enforcement only have the required skill set to maintain bare bones firearms proficiency when it applies to their handgun, its operation, skill set and protocol then ?

See where this is leading ?

Other LEO’s ? Chime in, but I think he is spot on with the National Police Dept avg in regards to firearms proficiency.

Lax skill set leads to issues. Common denominator
 
Is it fair to state that the majority of law enforcement only have the required skill set to maintain bare bones firearms proficiency when it applies to their handgun, its operation, skill set and protocol then ?

See where this is leading ?

Other LEO’s ? Chime in, but I think he is spot on with the National Police Dept avg in regards to firearms proficiency.

Lax skill set leads to issues. Common denominator
I have said this before. I do believe if you put the average LEO against the average casual gun owner (the one that has a gun as a fire extinguisher gun that hardly ever shoots it) the LEO will have better performance more time than not.

However against the gun enthusiast that shoot frequently attend matches and invest in classes once a year then no the average LEO can’t compete.
 
And another interesting video


I will add to this. As goofy as this test is when the Terre Haute Indiana PD went to M&P 40’s back in 2007 when they first came out they wanted the mag safety (a LEO thwre was saved on a gun grab a fight happens and his holster broke skinny meth head started to get control so he dumped the mag meth head got control and aimed it at him but nothing. Second officer showed up as it happens and well they still carry blackjacks so it didn’t go well for the perp)

Anyway the S&W rep showed on the M&P mag disconnect models if you pull the trigger partially back whem uiu remove the mag you can fire it with the mag removed….ok interesting but who would do that?
 
I have said this before. I do believe if you put the average LEO against the average casual gun owner (the one that has a gun as a fire extinguisher gun that hardly ever shoots it) the LEO will have better performance more time than not.

However against the gun enthusiast that shoot frequently attend matches and invest in classes once a year then no the average LEO can’t compete.
I’m not referring to only bullseyes on target.
I’m referring to proficiency, quality safety training and proper procedures as well.
LEO’s are as lax as the avg firearm owning public and that should not be the case.
Gun safety and proficiency should be high priority for depts. Its not.
That leads to Neg discharges and a whole host of issues.

When you have the high prob to have to employ “deadly use of force” as a job description, training should be paramount. Its not.
That leads to issues. Cops handle firearms way more than John Doe public. This leads to issues when johnny barely got by dept standards handling their firearm.

Why the gun range has holes in the ceiling and why LEO’s discharge firearms in a holster.
 
I’m not referring to only bullseyes on target.
I’m referring to proficiency, quality safety training and proper procedures as well.
LEO’s are as lax as the avg firearm owning public and that should not be the case.
Gun safety and proficiency should be high priority for depts. Its not.
That leads to Neg discharges and a whole host of issues.

When you have the high prob to have to employ “deadly use of force” as a job description, training should be paramount. Its not.
That leads to issues. Cops handle firearms way more than John Doe public. This leads to issues when johnny barely got by dept standards handling their firearm.

Why the gun range has holes in the ceiling and why LEO’s discharge firearms in a holster.
While some agencies have improved with tactical anatomy type drills and profeciency teainjng with quals most have sort of went backwards

Which like all industries Really it’s no surprise as the whole culture has changed.

We use to have rod and gun club type stuff in jr/sr high with guns brought into school Hunter Ed classes and all that

Wasn’t anythjng to run free through fields with BB guns and 22 rifles plinking

When I started in the Military and did some reserve LE in the mid 80’s early 90’s a large portion of vehicles in Military and police parking lots had NRA marksmanship or bullseye PPC stickers

Sanction matches were around every weekend we were given proficiency ammo to go to and encouraged. Sometimes on the clock

All that just doesn’t happen these days and most line staff at agencies have no clue what PPC or IDPA/USPSA are let alone shoot matches or get outside their little agency bubble on better ways to train/get proficient
 
A very short story my patrol sgt and I responded to a shooting call at a local bar. A guy got his butt kicked went to his vehicle returned with a 22 rifle and started shooting wounding two people. We were in different units his was close to the front door of the bar. People were running out screaming I was trying to lead people to a safer distance from the bar when I heard a shot fired close to where my sgt was. Looked toward the bar the shooter was standing in the doorway holding the rifle. My sgt fired five more shots at the guy with his 4" S&W 29 44 mag. None of his rounds came close to hitting the guy all hitting the building that was about 10 yards in front of him. The guy threw the rifle down raised his hands I put him in cuffs, patted him down put him in my patrol unit. Our Chief gave the sgt a *** chewing he still carried the 29. This story shows what can happen when officers don't receive good firearms training and don't have to qualify on a state approved course of fire.
 
Is it fair to state that the majority of law enforcement only have the required skill set to maintain bare bones firearms proficiency when it applies to their handgun, its operation, skill set and protocol then ?

See where this is leading ?

Other LEO’s ? Chime in, but I think he is spot on with the National Police Dept avg in regards to firearms proficiency.

Lax skill set leads to issues. Common denominator
But why is it (in recent years) almost always a P320? I’m sure all LE agencies aren’t using P320s. Shouldn’t we be seeing similar incidents, in similar number of occurrences, with EVERY brand of duty gun being used by LE agencies if it’s purely a lack of training/skill/competence in handling firearms issue?

With the vehement fire Sig fans use to “debate” the issues with the P320, I’m sure if similar incidents were happening with other manufacturers duty guns, the internet would be drowning in the posted reports/videos of those other, non P320, incidents.
 
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But why is it (in recent years) almost always a P320? I’m sure all LE agencies aren’t using P320s. Shouldn’t we be seeing similar incidents, in similar number of occurrences, with EVERY brand of duty gun being used by LE agencies if it’s purely a lack of training/skill/competence in handling firearms issue?

With the vehement fire Sig fans use to “debate” the issues with the P320, I’m sure if similar incidents were happening with other manufacturers duty guns, the internet would be drowning in the posted reports/videos of those other, non P320, incidents.
Agencies dont have an obligation to report incidents. They dont due to not wanting to look bad or at fault.
I’m sure there are a lot of ND’s around the country.
The 320’s make it as the agency can blame to gun based on reputation and not their officers.

Look at all the videos out there of military training accidents. That happens during deployments as well. DOD just dowsnt have a requirement to acknowledge them
 
The 320’s make it as the agency can blame to gun based on reputation and not their officers.
But initially (as in the first few P320 incidents) wouldn’t the same have been true, that the agencies had no obligation to report and they didn’t want to look bad or at fault? Why did P320 incidents gain the traction they have, to the point agencies now use the design of the P320 as a scapegoat? Rhetorical questions really, but “something” certainly had to separate the P320 from other duty guns when the incidents started getting publicly reported.

FWIW, while I don’t have Sigs any longer, I don’t hate Sig at all, and would have full faith in any of their DA/SA, SAO hammer fired guns (with manual safety or decocker).
 
Agencies dont have an obligation to report incidents. They dont due to not wanting to look bad or at fault.
I’m sure there are a lot of ND’s around the country.
The 320’s make it as the agency can blame to gun based on reputation and not their officers.

Look at all the videos out there of military training accidents. That happens during deployments as well. DOD just dowsnt have a requirement to acknowledge them
While yeah there are the department village idiots here and there that have an AD here and there the numbers are far higher with Sig 320 agencies.

My agencies idiot even had one with a Beretta 92D DAO yeah whem uiu pull the trigger it gets loud and then there’s a hole in the vehicle who’d of thought!

I’ll go farther. A large portion of AD’s with agencies with other makes (mostly Glocks or M&Ps) are when they are handling them NYPD had one recently where Police were clearing a building at Columbia university.

There was one several years ago where an Indiana Officer shot their partner searching a house whem a dog got loose from the cage so there are a uptick in ADs across the board because for some reason cops can’t learn to not use their WML to search however I would out that in its own category.

There are definitely a way larger number of Sig 320 departments tjan the other 2 majors players combined. And it can’t be compared to the Glock Leg as that was quickly rectified with holsters that covered the trigger guard and learning we shouldn’t start a trigger pull on the draw like DA revolvers and DA/SA guns let us get away with

While agencies can be slow to release info most usually do on incidents outside the range or any where an injury occurred!
 
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FWIW, while I don’t have Sigs any longer, I don’t hate Sig at all, and would have full faith in any of their DA/SA, SAO hammer fired guns (with manual safety or decocker).
As I've said before, I too have 100% faith in their other models that are proven. If I ABSOLUTELY had to carry a P226 as my EDC, I would do so Condition 1 without fear or worry.

My gripe is with the company themselves, and how they handled this. Like most of their die-hard fans, their ego is calling the shots. That's what put them on my blacklist. Other companies in similar circumstances would simply issue an apology, a recall, take the hit on the chin, and in a matter of time it would be water under the bridge.

It's like football/baseball mania. Your team is the very best. And when they're not the best, it's someone else's fault. And the fans, without having any real stake in the company, will happily start bar fights and riot in the streets rather than admit their team lost because they messed up. This is the case for SIG and their hardcore fans right now. And that is exactly why SIG has lost 100% of my respect moving forward.
 
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