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Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?

.22 is no doubt lethal. Thing is for SD the goal is not lethality-the goal is (or should be) stopping the attack right now. What happens an hour later is moot. Like you said, carry whatever works for you-the all “can” work.
 
ECS686 said:
That is antiquated reasoning. You are looking at Foot Pounds of Energy which are not as important as we have found out as what terminal ballistics do. (My bowling pin reference in a couple posts earlier) human bodies are not rigid like steel as bullets penetrate through. As Clint Smith says handgun rounds like homes in people rifles like holes through people. and as far as 22lr almost every hit from a 23 rifle in a torso is fatal and it’s FpE is what well under 100 pounds!

While the 45 and 357 are both great rounds shot placement Amd bullet type being the same it’s a wash.

I have seen people shot, thoracic hits some dropped some ran a few steps and dropped no matter the caliber. Others not hit within the CNS or aortic box ran a lot longer.

You want to knock someone over get a rifle!
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Yep and why Saint John Browning did what he did at the request of the Military, at the time he did it for the battlefield. That is "incapacity" over lethality... Since the projectile was controlled by rules of war, the big hardball was used so more of said energy, at sub-sonic speeds did its thing, as "well" as it does. I will concede that the pistol is to get me to my rifle and then well different ball game, unless one is slinging one everywhere they go. The other side got the Hi-Power...
 
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HansGruber said:
Horse feces.

If .45 “only takes one”, as you falsely claim, why did it take 14 rounds to drop the bad guy in this incident?

www.police1.com

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty
www.police1.com www.police1.com

Note—there were many sold hits to center torso as well as the head.
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There is an exception to every rule.
 
3L120 said:
There is an exception to every rule.
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Funny that is the only one they can point to and more of a testament of a pistol round, as if it had been 9mm, based on bullet weight and mass needed to kill the evil, that could have took over 28... :rolleyes: Guess that would have left, naw just would have used em faster.
 
Shibadog said:
I have hunted a lot of different animals over a lot of decades and have seen the effects of different calibers on a lot of medium sized game. Heavier caliber with heavier bullets simply outperform small bore/light calibers in the field.
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That's including a Lot More factors than just Ft Lb of Energy .

Diameter
Sectional Density

Each of those has at least as much impact as Energy .

( It hunting context , and having a given that each caliber is using a bullet reasonably suited for relevant game . )
 
Of course the fallacy here is equating .45 ACP only with 1911s.

The 1911 is a common handgun chambered in .45 ACP, but my choice for home defense is the FNX-45 Tactical. It’s hammer fired, optic ready slide, DA/SA with a safety/decocker, 15 round flush magazines, pic rail, and a threaded barrel. Suppressing .45 ACP is easier given it’s subsonic by definition.

I switched from a P226 recently.
 
neil0311 said:
Of course the fallacy here is equating .45 ACP only with 1911s.

The 1911 is a common handgun chambered in .45 ACP, but my choice for home defense is the FNX-45 Tactical. It’s hammer fired, optic ready slide, DA/SA with a safety/decocker, 15 round flush magazines, pic rail, and a threaded barrel. Suppressing .45 ACP is easier given it’s subsonic by definition.

I switched from a P226 recently.
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Still using the FNX with an optic and can for home defense...
 
KillerFord1977 said:
You found a Hi Point !
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Quiet some one may give me crazy money for it, its a collectors item now dont ay know.

From the Hi Power custom shop In the Lord's Caliber. Some of can hit what we aim at, after 50 years of practice.
sig.jpg
 
This debate will always rage on no matter who anyone refers too. Personally I’m a .40/10MM person and the debate on that will always rage on. No one’s right and no one’s wrong. If it comes down to it, it’s just a hole in what ever we shoot. Some work better for some and some for another. No matter what the bean counters will always have their stats.
 
ECS686 said:
The 38 Super shined when folks wanted major power factor in a high cap open gun (or at least that is how the rules made it when I started USPSA in the early/mid 90’s when there were 2 divisions) 38 Super for Open and 40 was the hotness for limited.

The 38 Super is a great round in the original loading

But 45 or 9….its a wash yea the 9mm had been made better with companies getting the expansion and penitrarion down with its sectional density and velocity that haven’t transferred to as much improvement across the board to the 45 with the exception of 2 rounds. HST and Critical Duty.

The biggest argument I hear with the folks that are 9mm dans other tjan faster follow-up shots (not sure what a .33 split will do that a .50 won’t outside of a match but whatever folks get sriven in such thins) people can’t help but bring up mag capacity and to me a lot of folks seem to have bought into capacity capacity capacity.

To the point uiu can’t mention a Glock 48 and someone not asked has to preach 15 round shield mags like the gospel….newsflash some of us got 10 round Glock 48’s for the purpose of mag restrictive states.

You can find cases where either 9 or 45 failed pick one you can shoot well and do you. I have been mandated to carry both and don’t care it’s a tool period. Get good with your tool.
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Lightning fast shooting...... How relevant is it in actual.gunfights? I was never fast when I was in the Marines, and not fast now. I want a cartridge that hits hard. I found out long ago the .44 magnum was far more than I was willing to tolerate. .357 magnum is perfect in a revolver. I am comfortable with heavy +P loads in the .45 acp. Make that first shot hit and not mag-dump like a wild monkey.
 
BigD said:
Lightning fast shooting...... How relevant is it in actual.gunfights? I was never fast when I was in the Marines, and not fast now. I want a cartridge that hits hard. I found out long ago the .44 magnum was far more than I was willing to tolerate. .357 magnum is perfect in a revolver. I am comfortable with heavy +P loads in the .45 acp. Make that first shot hit and not mag-dump like a wild monkey.
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My point is It’s not. People think it is bur as LAPD proves half second splits kills a lot of bad guys.

And as I have mentioned in several discussions look no further than police body cameras (and Force science has a bunch of info on It as well) Officers that shoot a .50 or so with a deliberate pace make their hits and the fight ends in under 7 rounds. The ones that run their gun at that .25 split they usually shoot more than 8 rounds and so a the mag dump or close to it and the perp is hit in an elbow if at all.

So when folks complain about speed of follow-up shots or higher bore axis effecting follow-up shots (obviously a 44 mag would compared to a 9mm but I am talking 45 vs 9 or whatever service round in a Sig 22X series vs Glock be’s whatever similar service gun) I chuckle because they just have zero clue of how that is but what makes or breaks a fight.

Now an argument could be made for what round does a better job at breaking bones and things going through which is probably a 45 but with the quality of bonded JHP these days I am not sure a bad guy that needs shot will have a better day with a 9mm put in the same place.
 
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