MN.Militia
Professional
You forgot this Magnum...
10mm vs. .40: Was the FBI Wrong (or Right) About This?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
10 mm full house is about the same as the .41 mag which was designed to be “the” Police cartridge. Both failed to take off because of recoil management issues by the intended audience, though both are. Pretty decent rounds. If you’re not using full power,then the .40 makes perfect sense. I do not understand backing even that off to 9 but that’s the way it works. If I was knowingly going out in harms way I’d want The most powerful round I could shoot accurately
HayesGreener
Ronin
The .357 was developed at the request of FBI in the 1930's for a pistol cartridge that would defeat WWI era body armor being used by bandits. Other magnum handgun calibers were developed by and for large men who were looking for power and were not recoil sensitive. Many hunted large game with a revolver. Those developments were noticed by law enforcement agencies that were looking for better man stoppers. NIJ studied the effects of various handgun calibers in the search for a better manstopoer.in the 60's and 70's. The magnum guys pushed magnum calibers, and even a 10 mm, but we always hit the same problem-getting novice recruits qualified on heavy recoiling handguns. Some departments like San Francisco issued magnums to recruits for training but the recoil problem was a barrier.
After the FBI Miami shootout FBI wanted to blame the gun rather than poor tactics. They needed a BIG GUN to prove the point. Some of the most knowledgeable firearms trainers in the world are at the FBI training unit at Quantico.
Some senior folks wanted to adopt the 45acp but higher ups wanted the 10mm. Of course recoil and gun size and weight got in the way of recruit training so they downsized to .40 S&W. Many policce departments around the country jumped on the .40 cal bandwagon. .40 cal is still a little snappy. After about 15 years FBI studied the problem again and settled on 9mm. They justified it by citing improvements in bullet design and performance. They also noted the recoil of .40 cal reduced gun life due to wear, and the cost of .9mm ammo was much less than .40 cal. There were still some pretty knowledgeable folks who would have preferred .45 acp. The FBI HRT still uses a 1911 in .45 in the SA Professional.
I am of the opinion that cost of ammo and guns was a guiding factor for the decision to jump back to 9mm, but I have to say some good 9mm defensive rounds came out of the whole process.
After the FBI Miami shootout FBI wanted to blame the gun rather than poor tactics. They needed a BIG GUN to prove the point. Some of the most knowledgeable firearms trainers in the world are at the FBI training unit at Quantico.
Some senior folks wanted to adopt the 45acp but higher ups wanted the 10mm. Of course recoil and gun size and weight got in the way of recruit training so they downsized to .40 S&W. Many policce departments around the country jumped on the .40 cal bandwagon. .40 cal is still a little snappy. After about 15 years FBI studied the problem again and settled on 9mm. They justified it by citing improvements in bullet design and performance. They also noted the recoil of .40 cal reduced gun life due to wear, and the cost of .9mm ammo was much less than .40 cal. There were still some pretty knowledgeable folks who would have preferred .45 acp. The FBI HRT still uses a 1911 in .45 in the SA Professional.
I am of the opinion that cost of ammo and guns was a guiding factor for the decision to jump back to 9mm, but I have to say some good 9mm defensive rounds came out of the whole process.
And all the women want this Magnum
Remember that just going with the old .45 would have been kind of admitting they were wrong for not adopting it years before,
RickAnderson
Custom
I've been told by others when I mulled about getting a 10mm, that its good "after you learn how to shoot it". When I ask, what do you need to learn, they have no answer and bring up the FBI had poor shooting scores with it, it takes to long to train how to shoot it. Huh, does the bullet not land where the sights are aimed with properly zeroed sights? Are the ballistics that bad, that unexpected amounts of elevation correction is needed at typical pistol shooting distances? For a round with higher MV than most?
It all smacks of the speculation repeated as fact, that comes out of the FBI abandoning 10mm, that keeps swirling around this cartridge.
BTW,
MagTech 10a has 1230 fps MV and is cheaper than most of the other big brands that are barely over a 1000 fps. But, MagTech is not readily available on the store shelves, so you'll likely need to order it online.
The CCI Blazer Brass is 1200 fps MV, and that is more likely to find on the store shelves. The rest of the big brand names, like mentioned before, seem to be loaded with about the same power as .40.
It all smacks of the speculation repeated as fact, that comes out of the FBI abandoning 10mm, that keeps swirling around this cartridge.
BTW,
MagTech 10a has 1230 fps MV and is cheaper than most of the other big brands that are barely over a 1000 fps. But, MagTech is not readily available on the store shelves, so you'll likely need to order it online.
The CCI Blazer Brass is 1200 fps MV, and that is more likely to find on the store shelves. The rest of the big brand names, like mentioned before, seem to be loaded with about the same power as .40.
negolien
Master Class
We all know the miami fbi shooting is what prompted the more power thought. RIP Heroes..
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HayesGreener
Ronin
I can tell you, when training novices who are recoil sensitive, it takes a good long while and a lot of effort to train that flinch out of them. Calibers with lesser recoil minimize the problem. Many novices in LEO academies have never fired a gun. You have to start there
RickAnderson
Custom
I don't dispute that, and totally agree that is most likely why the FBI abandoned 10mm. BTW, they also have limited time to train cadets, and those cadets have no time or resources to practice on their own.
That doesn't explain why 1911 owners, that have shot plenty of .45 ACP, tell me its good, "once you learn how to shoot it". They clearly don't know what they are talking about and repeating something they heard like its fact.
Its simply, 10mm has even more felt recoil than .45ACP, for a novice, that might take some time to get used too.
My first time shooting a pistol, was military training, a 1911 and the first day was a total wash, couldn't even hit the target. We spent a week of half-days training and by the end of the week I was shooting Marksman (for military that is the lowest qualification, sharp-shooter and experts are higher).
Biggfoot44
Custom
Context of the Times aka There was a whole lot going on then , on multiple levels . :
( Bear with some oversimplification, to keep to less than novel length post )
Mid to late '80s deep background- Height of the Crack Wars . LE still in midst of moving away from Six Shooters ( for better or worse ) . The Crack Wars were in full swing . The idea was widespread that LE was " outgunned " .
But the ideas about how to counter " outgunned " were diametrically opposed , with near religious ferocity on both sides . One was Bigger Bullets , and accept nothing else . The other was Whole Buncha Bullets , accept nothing else .
Meanwhile, one of the highest priorities of the FBI was ( and is ) the Appear Wise , All Knowing , and Authorative about all things LE related . But if FBI adopted/ recommended either , 1/3 of the LE Community would hate them , and figure if they're that stupid about Calibers , they're probably just as full of Guanno about everything else .
So to maintain their reputation, they had to Solomon -like create something to please both .
So it was " Hey , it starts with a "4" " to appease one side , and " Hey , it will have double digit mag capacity " to appease the other .
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My take at the time : The .45acp already offered a bullet of almost same weight , at same velocities , so why reinvent the wheel ?