Ayoob: Was the 10mm Destined to Fail?

[PieterCoetzee]

2 How many training and court relevant programs like MAG 20/40 etc and articles have you had published,

Its not only that; hes also a court recognized firearms and lethal force expert. This is a guy that got his start when spare mag pouches were little more than glass cases with a spring clip

 

[bangnburp]

Some know about destined to fail or more like bad timing. As they made it about the 10mm and not going back to a 45 which they had available..

Factor in the S&W 1076 was a way to big gun for general across the border issue

As for power levels really no different than years ago they approved 357 wheelguns but ran 38 most times. Which still running 10mm lite in a 1076 you still have a large handgun that’s an anvil to lug around

I have a 1086, had it for probably 35 years. Wife loves it. Big? Yes, and heavy, but then is a Ronin in .45 a flyweight? Don't come to me and say they are heavy and therefore useless when plastic toys have been your benchmark for handguns. Would I daily carry it? No, but I'm not carrying a 629 daily either. The big heavy 10 series Smiths are the benchmark for a 10mm. Underwood Ammo has some proper loads for the 10mm, and those heavy loads need a heavy pistol. I had a Glock 20 and 29, got rid of both. Never looked back.

 

[ECS686]

I have a 1086, had it for probably 35 years. Wife loves it. Big? Yes, and heavy, but then is a Ronin in .45 a flyweight? Don't come to me and say they are heavy and therefore useless when plastic toys have been your benchmark for handguns. Would I daily carry it? No, but I'm not carrying a 629 daily either. The big heavy 10 series Smiths are the benchmark for a 10mm. Underwood Ammo has some proper loads for the 10mm, and those heavy loads need a heavy pistol. I had a Glock 20 and 29, got rid of both. Never looked back.

Never said they were useless. I said they were not a great choice for across the board selections for agencies.

And the 1086 is slightly better as being DAO with a short strike trigger (S&W 3rd Gen DAO had one of the best pulls for DAO) nothing to de cocker which with a 1076 is a chore (it isn’t Sig 22X series friendly by any means)

I know a little bit about non plastic guns started my career with steel guns and the 4506 was one of my favorites. I also delt with agency training stuff and adult learning concepts from FLETC to a state academy

Again not calling anyones baby ugly by saying that it was an issue. Across the board the 1076 was a horrible choice for general issue. Especially for an investigative agency with someone powers. And as Hilton Yam stated nobody enjoyed a 5,000 round academy class with full powered 10mm in a 40 Oz gun. Cop or otherwise.

Then the way the controls were and the fact S&W couldn’t fill all the orders lots of other factors why the FBI quietly went to Sig 236/228 in the early 1990’s until around 1998 when they adopted the 40 Cal Glocl 22/23 until 2016 and the Gen 5 (specifically pre Gem 5 as the 17/19M model) and Hornady 135 plus p Critical Duty)

If one likes a 10mm great they can do them. I still run 45’s sometimes both steel framed Sig 220 is still one of my favorites as are HK 46 LEMs and M&P’s

That said anything substantially more than 14-18” (14-16 being proven optimal) is like running 357 mag through a snub the juice isn’t worth the squeeze as you are getting a lot more blast for no real gain.

 

[Annihilator]

I actually had a BREN 10 in my hand but it was one of the ones without a magazine. I was tempted because we were assure the mags would be coming. There was a Miami Vice episode where Sonny changes mags and drops the empty. Rumor is/was that Bren 10 fans scoured the location for the magazine.

By todays standards the BREN is a dated design; but only dated like the 1911, Browning Hi Power, and Beretta 92 are dated. A simplified Bren is a viable option (minus features like the switch to SA only) and would make production easier (think CZ75), maybe add a decock option

Im open to 10mm but I think its only useful in the full power version, otherwise why not use 40SW (or 9mm). Glock seems like the EASY button for 10mm, and I do like Glocks but if Im going 10mm, I want a SA/DA (OK I really want a BREN). The closest Ive ever found is the steel version of the EAA Witness. For the life of me I cant figure why CZ hasnt introduced a 10mm in the 75 series. They make a 45acp version, so 10mm seems an easy option???

Id suggest the biggest negative to 10mm as a PD gun is the recoil. The FBI saw scores drop when switching from 357 to 10, making qualification difficult with "small statured agents" (read that as females) Likewise PDs saw scores drop when switching from 9mm to 40. We can blame that on recoil but Id suggest its more a factor of the personnel being hired (equal opportunity shouldnt mean decreasing standards to make less qualified...QUALIFIED)

Back in the late 80’s, I was at a local gun show and this fella had a NIB Bren Ten with 2 mags, 500.00, really wanted it but since I lived in Ohio and this show was in WVA, I passed, didn’t know I could have just had it transferred over to a FFL in Ohio,

 

[Jester560]

He's hardly an "idiot" and sharing his knowledge and experience is hardly bloviation. Speaking of which, look who's talking!

Yup, you are and doing a poor job of it. I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are. If you don't like it, I could care less!

 

[DocSkinner]

Yes, don’t care for most of his rambling’s

Then why comment? You missed the entire point of the article... LMAO

 

[Annihilator]

Then why comment? You missed the entire point of the article... LMAO

Why did you?

I missed nothing! I read all of Mike H’s posts since this forum started

 

[MN.Militia]

Perhaps you're just the man: A chap on S&W forum told of shooting his way out of a pack of three circling and growling feral dogs in the Wisconsin woods. At least one chap was dubious and less than congratulatory. After all they weren't wolves or coyotes. My comment was that feral dog packs are real, nothing new, and dangerous.
-

True dat. Back in Indiana, I didn't see any wolves, but there are coyote, feral dogs, and very VERY rarely - a large cat like a cougar or such. I was legit attacked by a pack of feral dogs when I was a kid - I got bit by the alpha and then they left me alone... I guess I tasted bad.

 

[USMC6094]

Doesn't seem to be a fail..........

And I'm getting pretty sick of this kind of discussion, like "Is 40 caliber dying ", or "9mm VS 40 cal", and my favorite "9mm VS 45 cal".

This continual BS is just a gun writer getting paid by word count, Ayoob or not.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

And I'm getting pretty sick of this kind of discussion

Well....I hear your exasperation; but thats been the gun world since David first chucked a stone. Gun guys talk guns and calibers like car guys debate Fords and Chevys. If you are around long enough youll eventually hear the guy who argued for Ford say nice things about Chevys AND a guy who wouldnt touch anything but 45, say that 9mm handgun has my blessing

You either learn to love it or you filter it out BUT dont discount the knowledge and experience even if you dont like the answers. For instance offhand thumb position. Guys who grew up shooting in the last century learned to put our support thumb on top of the shooting thumb when pistol shooting. The young cool kids learned to shoot with their support thumb forward and have lots of cool guy reasons for it but to thumb on thumb guys it feels like asking them to wear ballet shoes and toe walking a marathon. Both sides think they are right (I know I am) and wont convince the other; so when they write they write what they know is right....

Its best if you just listen to me because Im RIGHT (tiny bit of sarcasm)

 

[ECS686]

True dat. Back in Indiana, I didn't see any wolves, but there are coyote, feral dogs, and very VERY rarely - a large cat like a cougar or such. I was legit attacked by a pack of feral dogs when I was a kid - I got bit by the alpha and then they left me alone... I guess I tasted bad.

Indiana has had an abundance of cougars these days…..fortunately most are within 5-20 miles depending on whichever website your on

 

[ECS686]

Doesn't seem to be a fail..........

And I'm getting pretty sick of this kind of discussion, like "Is 40 caliber dying ", or "9mm VS 40 cal", and my favorite "9mm VS 45 cal".

This continual BS is just a gun writer getting paid by word count, Ayoob or not.

Yeah, the 41 mag is still got its fans as does the 35 Remington and 35 Whalen for hunting or the old H&H Mag cartridges. Many still run tjose so while the 10mm maybe not a popular duty round or the others hunting if that’s what one likes and they are profecient then have at it and enjoy

 

[Belt Fed]

since David first chucked a stone.

A five inch stone at close distance will do more damage that a 2 inch stone, but a 2 inch stone the average person can throw farther.

 

[PieterCoetzee]

A five inch stone at close distance will do more damage that a 2 inch stone, but a 2 inch stone the average person can throw farther.

Well yesssss but it depends on the length of your sling....and dont get me started on the differences between sling materials. There was that guy with the big boat that insisted sinew was best but I like......

 

[3L120]

Destined to fail? Lots of handgun calibers have gone that were thought of as the new whizz bang when they came out. Just think of .357 Sig, 9x29, go back to the 41 magnum, or black powder days and 38-40. Lots of answers to the same questions, still love a 41 mag.

You could say the 38-40 was the first .40. Fires .40 cal bullets at about the same velocity, just got that big, but thin, case…

 

[ECS686]

You could say the 38-40 was the first .40. Fires .40 cal bullets at about the same velocity, just got that big, but thin, case…

This reference is perfect timing to add while a lot of people kive 357 mag or original 10mm loads what we have sort of relearned with 9mm winning the caliber war (sorry but it did and I like 45’s)

Penetration or 14-16” and shot placement is more important than expansion, velocity mag capacity all placement.

Like the 38-40 most of thebad guys **** dead and buried in Boot Hill were out there with solid lead 45 Colt or Schofield, 44-50 38-40 etc

While I wouldn’t recommend carrying ball with the availability of quality HST Gold Dot and Critical Duty (I am talking main LE issued stuff available to anyone at any box store so for the Buffalo Bore dudes most of us habe to order that and it’s not standard issue)

Much is hashed out and rehashed over nothing or the 10mm is someone pet round and they want to argue over histoey why it never took off as a standard issue past small pockets

You like it use it. We have a lot of great choices these days we didn’t have in the early 80’s

 

[Picaso uno]

Tech has caught up to a great caliber. Much like a 10mm socket, it was only a matter of time until it found its way back into the tool box. Being new to 10mm, I really appreciate articles like this and the history behind the cartridge. There are so many choices to make now when looking for a 10mm handgun, let alone a carbine since the cartridge is versatile enough to get an accurate dead stop over 100yards. Took my first 10mm handgun home yesterday and haven’t fired it yet but it might be my new favorite among the hardware collection.

 

[Annihilator]

This reference is perfect timing to add while a lot of people kive 357 mag or original 10mm loads what we have sort of relearned with 9mm winning the caliber war (sorry but it did and I like 45’s)

Penetration or 14-16” and shot placement is more important than expansion, velocity mag capacity all placement.

Like the 38-40 most of thebad guys **** dead and buried in Boot Hill were out there with solid lead 45 Colt or Schofield, 44-50 38-40 etc

While I wouldn’t recommend carrying ball with the availability of quality HST Gold Dot and Critical Duty (I am talking main LE issued stuff available to anyone at any box store so for the Buffalo Bore dudes most of us habe to order that and it’s not standard issue)

Much is hashed out and rehashed over nothing or the 10mm is someone pet round and they want to argue over histoey why it never took off as a standard issue past small pockets

You like it use it. We have a lot of great choices these days we didn’t have in the early 80’s

lol, ease up on the coffee…..

 

[Annihilator]

Tech has caught up to a great caliber. Much like a 10mm socket, it was only a matter of time until it found its way back into the tool box. Being new to 10mm, I really appreciate articles like this and the history behind the cartridge. There are so many choices to make now when looking for a 10mm handgun, let alone a carbine since the cartridge is versatile enough to get an accurate dead stop over 100yards. Took my first 10mm handgun home yesterday and haven’t fired it yet but it might be my new favorite among the hardware collection.

If you can, try a 10mm revolver, it’s great