Anyone carry TWO?

[az4783054]

leave your zipper down

 

[OldGrunt]

When you study gunfights, a surprising number of them result in wounds to hand, arm, and gun. People tend to focus on the threat, so this makes sense. Probably the fight is over if this happens, but lets explore the options. A right handed guy carrying a 1911 on the strong side inside the waistband having a snubby in the left hand pocket in serves several roles. The aforementioned damaged gun/hand. The right (dominant hand in this case) hand is blocked or engaged during the scuffle or attack that often predates the "gun" part of the gunfight. As a force multiplier if trouble is afoot and your companion is not carrying a sidearm. Passing them a "point and shoot" .38 gives an entire different dimension to the force dynamic. Casually standing with your left hand in your pocket when there is something "not right" with a situation gives you an edge without brandishing. I carry in my offside pocket a shrouded Smith and Wesson agent or an old style Colt Cobra because of the much better sights. Snubbies shoot well, but are the hardest guns to shoot. Sights make a difference. The Smith gets the nod in the few instances I am wearing jeans, as the cut is more restrictive than a proper pair of slacks or Duluth Firehose Pants, my usual wear. I am a grown up with 60 in the rear view mirror. Short pants are for children. Denim Jeans are for young men, typically the "Rebel Without A Cause and or Clue". As it so happens dressing in more than jeans and a t-shirt allows you to carry a proper sidearm. Which I must do these days, as my time for going hands on with ruffians has long past. When you think everything thru, you will see my logic.

And for Heavens Sake, never wear sandals or Crocs out of your house. Nothing says "victim" like footwear that is not for running/fighting.View attachment 105624

I'm 60. And it's close to a year since I've worn long pants. That was the last time I wore pants. I threw my work jeans away when I retired. Cargo and athletic shorts are my normal attire. I bet you don't live anywhere near South Texas. I do agree with the flip flops or crocs thing out in public though. Proper shoes are important. My J-frame fits well in my cargo shorts pockets. Don't worry, I'll treat you as a heat casualty if you come on down here in your long pants. Be advised--I don't hang out all day in the A/C. I'm an outside kind of guy. You office guys are kind of soft.

 

[HayesGreener]

When you study gunfights, a surprising number of them result in wounds to hand, arm, and gun. People tend to focus on the threat, so this makes sense. Probably the fight is over if this happens, but lets explore the options. A right handed guy carrying a 1911 on the strong side inside the waistband having a snubby in the left hand pocket in serves several roles. The aforementioned damaged gun/hand. The right (dominant hand in this case) hand is blocked or engaged during the scuffle or attack that often predates the "gun" part of the gunfight. As a force multiplier if trouble is afoot and your companion is not carrying a sidearm. Passing them a "point and shoot" .38 gives an entire different dimension to the force dynamic. Casually standing with your left hand in your pocket when there is something "not right" with a situation gives you an edge without brandishing. I carry in my offside pocket a shrouded Smith and Wesson agent or an old style Colt Cobra because of the much better sights. Snubbies shoot well, but are the hardest guns to shoot. Sights make a difference. The Smith gets the nod in the few instances I am wearing jeans, as the cut is more restrictive than a proper pair of slacks or Duluth Firehose Pants, my usual wear. I am a grown up with 60 in the rear view mirror. Short pants are for children. Denim Jeans are for young men, typically the "Rebel Without A Cause and or Clue". As it so happens dressing in more than jeans and a t-shirt allows you to carry a proper sidearm. Which I must do these days, as my time for going hands on with ruffians has long past. When you think everything thru, you will see my logic.

And for Heavens Sake, never wear sandals or Crocs out of your house. Nothing says "victim" like footwear that is not for running/fighting.View attachment 105624

Jerry Dove was one of the two FBI agents killed in the FBI Miami shootout in 1986. Dove had shot one of the bad guys, Michael Platt, with his Model 459 9mm pistol. Dove's round missed penetrating far enough by fractions to immediately incapacitate Platt. The ME later reported that Platt would not have survived that shot but had enough fight left in him to kill Dove and FBI agent Grogan and get behind the wheel of an FBI car. Platt had a Mini 14, and one of his rounds hit Dove's pistol, disabling it. Dove was seen attempting to clear his pistol when Platt walked up and shot him twice in the head. Both suspects were attempting to leave in an FBI car. FBI agent Ed Mirales was wounded in the arm but fired on the suspects one handed with his shotgun, and when that was empty walked up and killed both suspects at point blank range with his 686 revolver. Mireles was a former Marine.

So Jerry Dove could have benefitted from a backup handgun, and Mireles did benefit from having a second weapon.

We studied that incident 6 ways to Sunday. There were many mistakes, and heroism. Everydody knows the FBI went charging down the path to the 10mm afterward, which is a whole other story.

 

[HayesGreener]

leave your zipper down

No, you'll spook the horses! "Put your little contraptions away. I'm gonna walk you down to the jailhouse, I don't want to spook the horses". Virgil, in Appaloosa

 

[PieterCoetzee]

There were many mistakes, and heroism.

YES YES YES

I do think we can learn from the incident without dishonoring any of the agents. I would offer that detectives, agents, investigators (whatever they are called), all have a tendency to loose a bit of street survival mentality by the nature of their job, more so when they are more connected to the desk. On the road cops are in the sights every day.

Im just going from memory but at least one of the agents drew his weapon and sat on it. Im sure he thought that would be faster BUT when their car was struck, he lost the gun. Another agent who wore glasses lost his glasses and didnt have a spare pair. They knew they were going up against suspects aremed with a full auto Mini 14 and werent even wearing pistol level body armor (howmuch that would have helped is unclear; but its still a mindset question). Only two of the agents thought to bring a shotgun and none brought a MP5 or M16. They knew that both suspects were violent and should have presumed they would just surrender (that is/was a FBI mindset--"We are the FBI"). None of the agents thought to add additional ammo to their daily carry, even though they new the suspects would be packing heavy. The FBI mindset (see above) prevented them from notifying and requesting local PD for the arrest, Once the pursuit began, their comms with dispatch were all but useless in reporting where they were and the details of the incident.

I truly mean no disrespect to them. They are heroes who paid the price for their mistakes AND they got the bad guys. As for this thread, the agents who lost their guns in the collision and for the one whos gun was disabled by a shot , a second gun might have helped.