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Anyone carry TWO?

Winchester67 said:
When you study gunfights, a surprising number of them result in wounds to hand, arm, and gun. People tend to focus on the threat, so this makes sense. Probably the fight is over if this happens, but lets explore the options. A right handed guy carrying a 1911 on the strong side inside the waistband having a snubby in the left hand pocket in serves several roles. The aforementioned damaged gun/hand. The right (dominant hand in this case) hand is blocked or engaged during the scuffle or attack that often predates the "gun" part of the gunfight. As a force multiplier if trouble is afoot and your companion is not carrying a sidearm. Passing them a "point and shoot" .38 gives an entire different dimension to the force dynamic. Casually standing with your left hand in your pocket when there is something "not right" with a situation gives you an edge without brandishing. I carry in my offside pocket a shrouded Smith and Wesson agent or an old style Colt Cobra because of the much better sights. Snubbies shoot well, but are the hardest guns to shoot. Sights make a difference. The Smith gets the nod in the few instances I am wearing jeans, as the cut is more restrictive than a proper pair of slacks or Duluth Firehose Pants, my usual wear. I am a grown up with 60 in the rear view mirror. Short pants are for children. Denim Jeans are for young men, typically the "Rebel Without A Cause and or Clue". As it so happens dressing in more than jeans and a t-shirt allows you to carry a proper sidearm. Which I must do these days, as my time for going hands on with ruffians has long past. When you think everything thru, you will see my logic.

And for Heavens Sake, never wear sandals or Crocs out of your house. Nothing says "victim" like footwear that is not for running/fighting.View attachment 105624
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I'm 60. And it's close to a year since I've worn long pants. That was the last time I wore pants. I threw my work jeans away when I retired. Cargo and athletic shorts are my normal attire. I bet you don't live anywhere near South Texas. I do agree with the flip flops or crocs thing out in public though. Proper shoes are important. My J-frame fits well in my cargo shorts pockets. Don't worry, I'll treat you as a heat casualty if you come on down here in your long pants. Be advised--I don't hang out all day in the A/C. I'm an outside kind of guy. You office guys are kind of soft.
 
Winchester67 said:
When you study gunfights, a surprising number of them result in wounds to hand, arm, and gun. People tend to focus on the threat, so this makes sense. Probably the fight is over if this happens, but lets explore the options. A right handed guy carrying a 1911 on the strong side inside the waistband having a snubby in the left hand pocket in serves several roles. The aforementioned damaged gun/hand. The right (dominant hand in this case) hand is blocked or engaged during the scuffle or attack that often predates the "gun" part of the gunfight. As a force multiplier if trouble is afoot and your companion is not carrying a sidearm. Passing them a "point and shoot" .38 gives an entire different dimension to the force dynamic. Casually standing with your left hand in your pocket when there is something "not right" with a situation gives you an edge without brandishing. I carry in my offside pocket a shrouded Smith and Wesson agent or an old style Colt Cobra because of the much better sights. Snubbies shoot well, but are the hardest guns to shoot. Sights make a difference. The Smith gets the nod in the few instances I am wearing jeans, as the cut is more restrictive than a proper pair of slacks or Duluth Firehose Pants, my usual wear. I am a grown up with 60 in the rear view mirror. Short pants are for children. Denim Jeans are for young men, typically the "Rebel Without A Cause and or Clue". As it so happens dressing in more than jeans and a t-shirt allows you to carry a proper sidearm. Which I must do these days, as my time for going hands on with ruffians has long past. When you think everything thru, you will see my logic.

And for Heavens Sake, never wear sandals or Crocs out of your house. Nothing says "victim" like footwear that is not for running/fighting.View attachment 105624
Click to expand...
Jerry Dove was one of the two FBI agents killed in the FBI Miami shootout in 1986. Dove had shot one of the bad guys, Michael Platt, with his Model 459 9mm pistol. Dove's round missed penetrating far enough by fractions to immediately incapacitate Platt. The ME later reported that Platt would not have survived that shot but had enough fight left in him to kill Dove and FBI agent Grogan and get behind the wheel of an FBI car. Platt had a Mini 14, and one of his rounds hit Dove's pistol, disabling it. Dove was seen attempting to clear his pistol when Platt walked up and shot him twice in the head. Both suspects were attempting to leave in an FBI car. FBI agent Ed Mirales was wounded in the arm but fired on the suspects one handed with his shotgun, and when that was empty walked up and killed both suspects at point blank range with his 686 revolver. Mireles was a former Marine.

So Jerry Dove could have benefitted from a backup handgun, and Mireles did benefit from having a second weapon.

We studied that incident 6 ways to Sunday. There were many mistakes, and heroism. Everydody knows the FBI went charging down the path to the 10mm afterward, which is a whole other story.
 
HayesGreener said:
There were many mistakes, and heroism.
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YES YES YES

I do think we can learn from the incident without dishonoring any of the agents. I would offer that detectives, agents, investigators (whatever they are called), all have a tendency to loose a bit of street survival mentality by the nature of their job, more so when they are more connected to the desk. On the road cops are in the sights every day.

Im just going from memory but at least one of the agents drew his weapon and sat on it. Im sure he thought that would be faster BUT when their car was struck, he lost the gun. Another agent who wore glasses lost his glasses and didnt have a spare pair. They knew they were going up against suspects aremed with a full auto Mini 14 and werent even wearing pistol level body armor (howmuch that would have helped is unclear; but its still a mindset question). Only two of the agents thought to bring a shotgun and none brought a MP5 or M16. They knew that both suspects were violent and should have presumed they would just surrender (that is/was a FBI mindset--"We are the FBI"). None of the agents thought to add additional ammo to their daily carry, even though they new the suspects would be packing heavy. The FBI mindset (see above) prevented them from notifying and requesting local PD for the arrest, Once the pursuit began, their comms with dispatch were all but useless in reporting where they were and the details of the incident.

I truly mean no disrespect to them. They are heroes who paid the price for their mistakes AND they got the bad guys. As for this thread, the agents who lost their guns in the collision and for the one whos gun was disabled by a shot , a second gun might have helped.
 
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BarryinIN said:
As you go about your day tomorrow, at random times, ask yourself “If I needed my carry gun right this second, how easily can I get it?”
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I live here. That black spot is Brutus BTW.

My youngest Grandchild is 22 YO and lives in Denver. I haven't been to the store in a couple of weeks. I don't do yard work.

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And my Glock is currently sitting on the coffee right in front of me.
ETA: The OC is my back up.
BarryinIN said:
Don’t do things like second guess it by thinking “But why would I need my gun now?”, just do the exercise.
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Haven't second guessed why I might need a gun at any given time since July 4th 2025.
 
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The agents had plenty combined firepower available but couldn't bring it to bear due to slipshod planning and execution. I believe the incident went down as it did due to a failure of leadership. They knew they were dealing with very dangerous people and should have had SWAT on hand to do the takedown. As it happened they were circulating where they thought they might see them and happened upon them. But they knew they were looking for some really bad guys from the outset.

I give Grogan credit for chosing an unpopulated block to attempt the felony stop but they just didn't have enough focused tactical power to dominate the situation.

Once the shooting started the agents gave it a valiant effort but it wasn't enough. Ed Mireles brought his USMC warrior ethos to the fight and ended it. Jerry Dove was SWAT trained and had to wonder before he was killed why they didn't have SWAT involved in the takedown. Even so he managed to.put a killing shot on Platt before his gun was disabled.

The fact is that the average FBI agent will make fewer felony arrests in a career than a patrol officer will in a year. They did not grasp the lethality of the situation and were just over their heads once the shooting started.

I am convinced that the failure of leadership was why FBI decided to blame the duty weapons and jump on the 10mm train. By blaming the gun they deflected focus on leadership failure. There were heroic acts by the agents and you can't diminish that. But if you don't take a cold hard look at what went wrong its going to happen again somewhere
 
HayesGreener said:
The agents had plenty combined firepower available but couldn't bring it to bear due to slipshod planning and execution. I believe the incident went down as it did due to a failure of leadership. They knew they were dealing with very dangerous people and should have had SWAT on hand to do the takedown. As it happened they were circulating where they thought they might see them and happened upon them. But they knew they were looking for some really bad guys from the outset.

I give Grogan credit for chosing an unpopulated block to attempt the felony stop but they just didn't have enough focused tactical power to dominate the situation.

Once the shooting started the agents gave it a valiant effort but it wasn't enough. Ed Mireles brought his USMC warrior ethos to the fight and ended it. Jerry Dove was SWAT trained and had to wonder before he was killed why they didn't have SWAT involved in the takedown. Even so he managed to.put a killing shot on Platt before his gun was disabled.

The fact is that the average FBI agent will make fewer felony arrests in a career than a patrol officer will in a year. They did not grasp the lethality of the situation and were just over their heads once the shooting started.

I am convinced that the failure of leadership was why FBI decided to blame the duty weapons and jump on the 10mm train. By blaming the gun they deflected focus on leadership failure. There were heroic acts by the agents and you can't diminish that. But if you don't take a cold hard look at what went wrong its going to happen again somewhere
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I agree for the most part. Those guys did give a valiant effort and responded well once the fight started. In a departmental shotgun school, we practiced the Morales shotgun "shoot reload shoot" with one hand drill, which was pretty amazing especially under the kind of conditions those guys were fighting. I do question their decision (or lack of planning) not to bring at least a shotgun or better yet a MP5 for everyone on the team AND have them handy in the car NOT the trunk. I get that they were "just looking" for the vehicle; but they were looking at the time of day when the prior robberies occurred.

You call it lack of leadership, I say its mindset--matters not, it produced the same affect. The FBI is great at what they do; but its like you said they as a rule, dont have the practical experience of daily dealing with criminals. I mean NO disrespect to the Bureau, they solve more major cases than any other agency or PD; but they dont have the street view experience.

I cant imagine any cop removing his weapon from the holster and placing it on the seat to have it handy. I suspect that was part of the leadership/mindset failure and lack of range training in FBI uniform (suit and tie). Drawing shooting and fighting in a suit that looks court presentable, isnt easy and few government employees are buying tailor made suits designed for fighting from the likes of grayman.co

Back to the two gun issue, PDs have an aversion to back up guns because of the misconception that it might be used as a drop gun to justify a bad shooting. Its a long since out of date concept, easily overcome by modern forensics. In truth, the need is miniscule BUT when its needed, its NEEDED and nothing else will suffice. In point of fact Agent Risner and Hanlon were both carrying 5 shot S&W 38spl, which both were used in the shootout. Hanlon was one of the Agents that lost his primary weapon in the initial collision but was able to stay in the fight with his back up.
 
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