testtest

Power vs capacity

I carry 357 magnum revolvers of different sizes and use different grains for what in doing. Example ill use speer short barrel 135 grain or hornady 125 grain flex tip in my m and p 340 amd ill go all the way up to 180 grain hard cast in my 686 plus when im around big gators here in florida. My issue is the fact that if youre a good guy and and an armed bad guy has to be dealt with, it doesnt matter what caliber you use if you get the wrong prosecutor hes going to spin it like youre the bad guy! If you carry 9mm and shoot the bad guy 5 or 6 times its too many shots ,if youre me and hit him twice in the center mass it's the caliber I used. What if im walking my 20 pound dog near a water area and I bring my 180 grain hardcast just in case and the gators stay away but a psycho human comes outta nowhere and tries to rob me with a knife and I shoot him. Now im screwed for the ammo I had in my gun for gators instead of the focus being on the fact that this pos tried to rob me.
Coop, I too sometimes carry for gators, typically a Colt Trooper III with some pretty heavy stuff, often hand loads. But where I would carry for gators, I'm not likely to run into a human of much concern. And if I'm going places where I might run into humans of concern I'm not likely to run into the gators, so I carry something a little smaller but with more capacity. I won't ask where you're from or any other identifiers, but I'm curious where you might be concerned about running into both on the same trip unless you're a Wildlife Officer or 'game warden'. I don't think any of us can readily determine what, if any firearm and ammo we might need at any given time or place for sure, or what combination might be the best choice in either event if we concede that the 'wrong' prosecutor will spin it like we're the bad guy. If we're to carry, we carry the firearm and ammo most likely to handle any problem we might run into, and it's pretty likely the 'wrong' prosecutor is going to spin it like we're the bad guy anyway. In either situation, I'll shoot whatever I'm carrying until the threat, whether man or beast has been stopped. I don't mean this in any way as a disagreement, only to better define and understand the circumstances we might face. thanks, jj.
 
Well, you do what you think is best BUT the police wont wait for your attorney, and saying you want your attorney sounds like something they are used to criminals saying. Yes its your right; but while youre waiting, the officer wont be thinking that guy is a victim. All hes thinking about is that hes gonna have to work late because YOU shot some guy.

Your articulation later is TOO LATE. evidence that might have been found at the scene may be lost forever. While you are waiting the report is being written and once youre listed as a suspect nothing will change that.

Do what you want
I've got to say 'each to his own', even in this situation. But I think the guy who spills his guts without his attorney being present is setting himself up for a bigger problem. Being honest and forthcoming as to the basics, IE: name, rank, and serial number, my plan is to offer nothing more to the officer until and unless my attorney is present. jj
 
You should do what you think is best; but as I keep saying the report wont wait, in fact the poor patrol guy will be glad that you are waiting so he can get the report written and go home. He'll be happy to turn it over to the suits BUT once he lists YOU as anything other than VICTIM, theres no going back from that
Pete, I'm not sure where you're from and where you're referring to in all this, but I do know where I'm from and referring to and it ain't nothing like I'm reading here.
 
If concerned your caliber choice will be targeted by a crappy prosecutor, I’ve always heard choosing the caliber local PD uses is easy to defend. Granted, the chances of finding any agency still using the .357 Magnum are small.
However…

Yes , that * used to * be a sometimes useful thing .

But nowadays , you're hard pressed to find an agency Not using 9mm . But it's also very popular for general public carry.

So potentially, one could base their Carry Ammo upon the Duty Load of either their Local Agency , or that of the Regionally Dominant Large Agency . ( Of course , that's if those LE agencies didn't make stupid choices )
 
This whole thing about calibers is a tempest in a teacup. It misses the key factor, which is, was the use of force legally justified? Was it reasonable and necessary? Were you in fear of death or grievous bodily harm to yourself or others? If the answer is yes, whether you use a .22 or an F350 Super Duty has no bearing on guilt. Certainly if it was not justified, a prosecuutor or plaintiff's attorney might use your weapon of choice as an indication of your pre-formed intent, but that won't change the facts as to your justification for use of deadly force. Wearing a T Shirt with "Kill them all and let God sort them out" would probably be more harmful to your case than your choice of caliber.

To illustrate my point, stage 1 of Florida LEO annual qualification begins at 1 yard, draw and fire 3 rounds from the hip, then take a step back and fire 3 rounds point shoulder. That's 6 rounds usually done in 2-3 seconds and your opponent is probably finished but still upright to the end of it. Now the question is going to be, was employment of deadly force justified, not how many rounds were fired. On the other hand, if the suspect is down and out after the first three, the second 3 while he's on the ground and no longer a threat is not objectively reasonable. Caliber has no bearing on whether deadly force was justified to start with.
 
Pete, I'm not sure where you're from and where you're referring to in all this, but I do know where I'm from and referring to and it ain't nothing like I'm reading here.
Im retired from Bodymore Murderland. So you may live someplace else where cops are excited for that last minute call that keeps them from their personal life and home; but I dont know a place like that. You may live in a place where street cops are over joyed for you not to answer questions so they can complete a report and get it approved before they can go home; but I dont know a place like that. and maybe you live in a place where when you say "lawyer" cops dont think guilty or at least something to hide; but I dont know a place like that

Now no working cop will admit any of that to anyone who isnt "on the job"; but Id suggest to at least consider it might be true.



The responding officer writes the initial report. He decides who to put in the VICTIM block and who gets listed as the SUSPECT. Once you are in the suspect category nothing short of Baby Jesus coming from Heaven can change that. You may or may not be prosecuted but you will always be a suspect. So you can choose to talk to him early, without an attorney, and get your side of the event fresh in his mind or NOT its up to you
 
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This whole thing about calibers is a tempest in a teacup. It misses the key factor, which is, was the use of force legally justified? Was it reasonable and necessary? Were you in fear of death or grievous bodily harm to yourself or others? If the answer is yes, whether you use a .22 or an F350 Super Duty has no bearing on guilt. Certainly if it was not justified, a prosecuutor or plaintiff's attorney might use your weapon of choice as an indication of your pre-formed intent, but that won't change the facts as to your justification for use of deadly force.
EXACTLY
 
This whole thing about calibers is a tempest in a teacup. It misses the key factor, which is, was the use of force legally justified? Was it reasonable and necessary? Were you in fear of death or grievous bodily harm to yourself or others? If the answer is yes, whether you use a .22 or an F350 Super Duty has no bearing on guilt. Certainly if it was not justified, a prosecuutor or plaintiff's attorney might use your weapon of choice as an indication of your pre-formed intent, but that won't change the facts as to your justification for use of deadly force. Wearing a T Shirt with "Kill them all and let God sort them out" would probably be more harmful to your case than your choice of caliber.

To illustrate my point, stage 1 of Florida LEO annual qualification begins at 1 yard, draw and fire 3 rounds from the hip, then take a step back and fire 3 rounds point shoulder. That's 6 rounds usually done in 2-3 seconds and your opponent is probably finished but still upright to the end of it. Now the question is going to be, was employment of deadly force justified, not how many rounds were fired. On the other hand, if the suspect is down and out after the first three, the second 3 while he's on the ground and no longer a threat is not objectively reasonable. Caliber has no bearing on whether deadly force was justified to start with.
C'mon Hayes, nobody is dumb enough to try to take somebody out with an F350 Super Duty. Heck, I've heard even farmers who lose a chicken or two to a Super Duty runnin' over 'em don't get upset about it. They'll just tell you that any danged chicken that can't get out of the way of a Super Duty ain't worth much anyhow!!! ---- I'm jus' kiddn' all y'all Ford lovers, but only by a little bit.
 
C'mon Hayes, nobody is dumb enough to try to take somebody out with an F350 Super Duty. Heck, I've heard even farmers who lose a chicken or two to a Super Duty runnin' over 'em don't get upset about it. They'll just tell you that any danged chicken that can't get out of the way of a Super Duty ain't worth much anyhow!!! ---- I'm jus' kiddn' all y'all Ford lovers, but only by a little bit.
Well, you do have to clean out the treads of those Michelins after running over something, and that's chore!
 
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HAVE is the operative word. Yeah Im sure some still do BUT a revolver wouldnt be my first choice if I was serious about self defense in the modern world. 3 shot in 3 seconds at 3 yards is 1970s thinking
It might not be my first choice either, but you might be surprised how many are out there in use.
 
It might not be my first choice either, but you might be surprised how many are out there in use.
Oh for sure I dont doubt that. Its a location and perception thing.

As Ive said I went through a Doc Holliday period; but when carried SAAs I carried at least two and often three plus a sawed off SxS and I was in a LOW threat zone. I might have lost a gun fight but it sure would have looked cool
 
I have used my pistol to defend myself inside the US and the amount of misinformation and silly things people worry about is off the charts.

If you think the police are making the decision to list you as a victim or suspect (rather than collecting evidence for a prosecutor to put to a grand jury since almost all uses of a firearm make the potential crime a felony) then that's just wrong.

The number 1 biggest factor in self defense is the concept of "primary aggressor" and it's hardly ever discussed.
 
Also, if you use your gun for any reason and are talking to the police about it, the only words you should speak are your name and the words "I want a lawyer". The police HAVE to respect that and if they don't, they WILL get in trouble for it. A large case local to me was just blown in court because the police kept questioning the suspect after he clearly asked for a lawyer. We all know the police aren't super trustworthy but this isn't the aspect I'd question.

In my case, they tried to get me to sign paperwork immediately before talking to me that would have allowed them to search my vehicle and possessions, don't sign anything either. They definitely thought they were being slick when I watched the bodycam back afterwards but when I declined and asked for a lawyer they visibly deflated (but I was still treated with respect etc)
 
the amount of misinformation and silly things people worry about is off the charts.
On THIS we agree
If you think the police are making the decision to list you as a victim or suspect (rather than collecting evidence for a prosecutor to put to a grand jury since almost all uses of a firearm make the potential crime a felony) then that's just wrong.
but sadly on THIS we disagree. Collecting evidence is WHY you need to speak to them when they arrive. Your statement IS collecting evidence. Your statement tells the police YOU are the VICTIM, it also tells him where to look for additional evidence (that might be lost if you WAIT for an attorney). It also tells him about other suspects that might have fled (possibly taking or discarding evidence). You saying LAWYER means hes not getting any of the evidence that he doesnt know about until hours after the incident. BUT you do what you think is right
The number 1 biggest factor in self defense is the concept of "primary aggressor"
Yeah thats important but I wouldnt say its the biggest factor
"I want a lawyer". The police HAVE to respect that
Yes they will which AGAIN means they wont get your story in a timely manor. Without your version the report will still be written and you may not like the outcome
In my case, they tried to get me to sign paperwork immediately before talking to me that would have allowed them to search my vehicle and possessions, don't sign anything either.
How hard do you think it is for them to get a search warrant? Its trivial but it makes you look like a suspect if you refuse UNLESS you have something there to hide (which will be found anyway). Your cops werent "deflated" they were just pissed that you added another couple hours to them getting home BUT you cant **** them off if you like.
I'll also say it helps when confronted by police to just follow their commands.
Well duh?

Brother I dont know you and it sounds like you made it through your situation OK; but I dont think you understand how the process works OR how cops see and respond to critical incidents. Cops are humans just like you. They have families and a life outside the uniform. You can be they good guy and explain what happened or the "suspect" who wants a lawyer. Now you do what you want; but it kinda sounds like youre telling a surgeon how to do heart surgery because you removed a splinter once. Im saying this because Ive handled "a few" shootings and homicides in my 35 years as a cop

Im saying all of this with the expectation that readers can form a decent sentence and articulate their situation, not just say I was afraid....
 
On THIS we agree

but sadly on THIS we disagree. Collecting evidence is WHY you need to speak to them when they arrive. Your statement IS collecting evidence. Your statement tells the police YOU are the VICTIM, it also tells him where to look for additional evidence (that might be lost if you WAIT for an attorney). It also tells him about other suspects that might have fled (possibly taking or discarding evidence). You saying LAWYER means hes not getting any of the evidence that he doesnt know about until hours after the incident. BUT you do what you think is right

Yeah thats important but I wouldnt say its the biggest factor

Yes they will which AGAIN means they wont get your story in a timely manor. Without your version the report will still be written and you may not like the outcome

How hard do you think it is for them to get a search warrant? Its trivial but it makes you look like a suspect if you refuse UNLESS you have something there to hide (which will be found anyway). Your cops werent "deflated" they were just pissed that you added another couple hours to them getting home BUT you cant **** them off if you like.

Well duh?

Brother I dont know you and it sounds like you made it through your situation OK; but I dont think you understand how the process works OR how cops see and respond to critical incidents. Cops are humans just like you. They have families and a life outside the uniform. You can be they good guy and explain what happened or the "suspect" who wants a lawyer. Now you do what you want; but it kinda sounds like youre telling a surgeon how to do heart surgery because you removed a splinter once. Im saying this because Ive handled "a few" shootings and homicides in my 35 years as a cop

Im saying all of this with the expectation that readers can form a decent sentence and articulate their situation, not just say I was afraid....
Let the lawyer make your statement. You don't add any details. You don't even need to say "I feared for my life" or anything like that.

And while it may not be hard for them to get search warrants, signing your rights away right off the rip prevents your lawyer from challenging it later IN COURT. Where everything really matters, not on the side of the road, not in a police car, not in an interogation room, not until you've sat down with your lawyer should you make ANY statements beyond your name and "I want my attorney".

And obviously a retired cop wants to think it's smart to talk to them and not be a "victim" when that just plain doesn't matter in serious cases involving shootings and firearms. The grand jury and prosecutor decides those things.

In my case my attacker died and the potential charges would have been Murder. There is too much on the line to not shut up completely and wait until court.
 
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