testtest

Learn me about Red Dots

Grayfox

Grayfox

Professional
I know absolutely nothing about red dot optics on handguns. I've always been a keep it simple kinda guy. I figure that if I have to use my gun, it'll likely be at close range and I'll probably be point shooting anyway.
However, I have this Girsan MCP35 LW PI that I really like. Basically its the 4" Hi-Power lightweight. I'd like to carry it, but there's a problem. It shoots slightly left for me. The rear sight is on the optics cover and is not adjustable. Nothing I can do to correct it. So I'm considering trying a red dot.
Tell me about footprints? From what I can find, this gun uses a RMSc footprint. I'm guessing that has something to do with mounting?
Battery life? Do you just leave the optic on all the time?
Brands? I want something decent, but not too expensive for my first time to try this. Recommendations?
Holsters? Do these require special holsters?
Anything else I need to know?
 
Grayfox said:
I know absolutely nothing about red dot optics on handguns. I've always been a keep it simple kinda guy. I figure that if I have to use my gun, it'll likely be at close range and I'll probably be point shooting anyway.
However, I have this Girsan MCP35 LW PI that I really like. Basically its the 4" Hi-Power lightweight. I'd like to carry it, but there's a problem. It shoots slightly left for me. The rear sight is on the optics cover and is not adjustable. Nothing I can do to correct it. So I'm considering trying a red dot.
Tell me about footprints? From what I can find, this gun uses a RMSc footprint. I'm guessing that has something to do with mounting?
Battery life? Do you just leave the optic on all the time?
Brands? I want something decent, but not too expensive for my first time to try this. Recommendations?
Holsters? Do these require special holsters?
Anything else I need to know?
Click to expand...
1) holsters.....when i ordered my Alien Gear for any of my carry, they always have a question for red dot sights....

so i'd say yes to special, in of at least required for a red dot...over a gun with NO red dot, only iron sights.


2) make sure you can actually see the color red....yes, no joke, and if not, then you might need to go green dot

i cannot see the color red out of my left eye, due to damage from undiagnosed blood pressure when i was younger

3) from what i can recall others saying, the dot stays on 24/7, and the battery gets changed at a timed interval..???

i myself am actually considering a dot, green, for my G-19 MOS, so that's all i can help you with for now

so we both will be getting lots of help
 
Here's what I have learned thus far:

Cheap isn't a bargain. A dot on a pistol gets repeatedly abused and less expensive options fail soon. Expect to pay around $200 for something that can take the punishment. We have been pleased with our Holosuns and Sigs.

Battery life is governed by how bright the dot is run. Get something that is motion activated (a.k.a. shake awake) to maximize battery life. Options that require you to manually power up/down can get frustrating. Plan to change the battery every six months, the cost is minimal.

Lightweight is better. Aluminum housings are great, but polymer housings (like on the Sigs) are perfectly serviceable, and Sig has a metal shield on some models.

Get something that allows battery access without taking the dot off. Side access or top access prevents a lot of frustration when battery change is necessary.

Multiple reticles are nice, but dot size matters when shooting for accuracy at distance. The 6 moa dot recommended for carry covers a lot of the target at 25 yards and beyond.

Brightness adjustment is very useful. Outdoors and indoors have differing brightness requirements. A dot being run too bright can fool the eye, making it appear larger on the target.

Mounting footprint matters. Take the pistol (or mounting plate) with you when purchasing. If buying online make sure you are ordering the correct footprint.

Window size is a consideration, as well. Bigger windows are easier to use, and easier to clean. You will find there aren't a plethora of big window options with an RMSc footprint.

Red or green? Green is supposed to be better in daylight but green also has shorter battery life.

My suggestion, based on my experience. Buy a 2-3 moa dot from a reputable manufacturer. Green if you figure to be doing a lot of outside shooting. Our default has become the Holosun 507 series. No complaints with them.

Be sure to use quality threadlocker and proper torque when mounting. Don't trust the pre-applied stuff on the screws. Over-torquing screws can distort some housings, resulting in a dead emitter. Under-torquing can lead to an unexpected separation of dot from slide during cycling.
 
Good points above from Blackmesa. There are a variety of dots and mounting systems out there. You'll have to match your dot and mounting plate to the slide cut on your pistol. If hour current pistol does not have a slide cut, some manufacturers offer a replacement slide with a slide cut, of even with a dot mounted.

A dot optic changes the sighting paradigm. We have been taught with iron sights to focus on the front sight and allow the target and rear sight to go fuzzy. With the dot, you focus on tbe target, and superimpose the dot on the target.

Whatever optic you choose, be sure you still have a rear sight and can see the front sight through the optic. Thus if your optic goes down you can still use the iron sights. The dot and irons should be co- witnesed for the same point.of impact.

A common challenge when learning to use the dot is not being able to pick up the dot quickly. Presentation of the gun is important. Forget all the head down crouching we have been doing forever with iron sights. Stand up strsight and bring the gun up to eye level and look at the target through the dot window. There is a learning curve but practice will have you acquiring the target faster than ever. I have found thst I am much quicker at combat distances with the dot, but more precise with iron sights. I am also more precise with a small dot than with a large dot, especially at 15 yards and beyond. Inside 7 yards if you have center mass in the window you are going to hit it..

Some folks with astigmatism have trouble seeing the dot clearly. Try before you buy.

Good luck on your journey.
 
Blackmesa96 said:
Here's what I have learned thus far:

Cheap isn't a bargain. A dot on a pistol gets repeatedly abused and less expensive options fail soon. Expect to pay around $200 for something that can take the punishment. We have been pleased with our Holosuns and Sigs.

Battery life is governed by how bright the dot is run. Get something that is motion activated (a.k.a. shake awake) to maximize battery life. Options that require you to manually power up/down can get frustrating. Plan to change the battery every six months, the cost is minimal.

Lightweight is better. Aluminum housings are great, but polymer housings (like on the Sigs) are perfectly serviceable, and Sig has a metal shield on some models.

Get something that allows battery access without taking the dot off. Side access or top access prevents a lot of frustration when battery change is necessary.

Multiple reticles are nice, but dot size matters when shooting for accuracy at distance. The 6 moa dot recommended for carry covers a lot of the target at 25 yards and beyond.

Brightness adjustment is very useful. Outdoors and indoors have differing brightness requirements. A dot being run too bright can fool the eye, making it appear larger on the target.

Mounting footprint matters. Take the pistol (or mounting plate) with you when purchasing. If buying online make sure you are ordering the correct footprint.

Window size is a consideration, as well. Bigger windows are easier to use, and easier to clean. You will find there aren't a plethora of big window options with an RMSc footprint.

Red or green? Green is supposed to be better in daylight but green also has shorter battery life.

My suggestion, based on my experience. Buy a 2-3 moa dot from a reputable manufacturer. Green if you figure to be doing a lot of outside shooting. Our default has become the Holosun 507 series. No complaints with them.

Be sure to use quality threadlocker and proper torque when mounting. Don't trust the pre-applied stuff on the screws. Over-torquing screws can distort some housings, resulting in a dead emitter. Under-torquing can lead to an unexpected separation of dot from slide during cycling.
Click to expand...
This is pretty much bang on. I own an ungodly amount of red dots and this pretty much sums things up. As mentioned, do not cheap out on a red dot - particularly if it’s going on an EDC gun. I would say $200 is the low end of the range for an edc gun. If it’s just for the range then you can find quite a few good red dots in the $180-225 range. The main thing to be aware of is there is a fairly steep learning curve with a red dot, but once you get proficient you’ll wonder what took so long.
 
Blackmesa96 said:
Here's what I have learned thus far:

Cheap isn't a bargain. A dot on a pistol gets repeatedly abused and less expensive options fail soon. Expect to pay around $200 for something that can take the punishment. We have been pleased with our Holosuns and Sigs.

Battery life is governed by how bright the dot is run. Get something that is motion activated (a.k.a. shake awake) to maximize battery life. Options that require you to manually power up/down can get frustrating. Plan to change the battery every six months, the cost is minimal.

Lightweight is better. Aluminum housings are great, but polymer housings (like on the Sigs) are perfectly serviceable, and Sig has a metal shield on some models.

Get something that allows battery access without taking the dot off. Side access or top access prevents a lot of frustration when battery change is necessary.

Multiple reticles are nice, but dot size matters when shooting for accuracy at distance. The 6 moa dot recommended for carry covers a lot of the target at 25 yards and beyond.

Brightness adjustment is very useful. Outdoors and indoors have differing brightness requirements. A dot being run too bright can fool the eye, making it appear larger on the target.

Mounting footprint matters. Take the pistol (or mounting plate) with you when purchasing. If buying online make sure you are ordering the correct footprint.

Window size is a consideration, as well. Bigger windows are easier to use, and easier to clean. You will find there aren't a plethora of big window options with an RMSc footprint.

Red or green? Green is supposed to be better in daylight but green also has shorter battery life.

My suggestion, based on my experience. Buy a 2-3 moa dot from a reputable manufacturer. Green if you figure to be doing a lot of outside shooting. Our default has become the Holosun 507 series. No complaints with them.

Be sure to use quality threadlocker and proper torque when mounting. Don't trust the pre-applied stuff on the screws. Over-torquing screws can distort some housings, resulting in a dead emitter. Under-torquing can lead to an unexpected separation of dot from slide during cycling.
Click to expand...
do you (and anyone else) recommend a very good torque driver for the small screws..??

i have seen Real Avid for one, i think Wheeler is another....????
 
Grayfox said:
This is part of my problem. The rear sight is part of the cover plate and is not adjustable. Ordinarily, a minor adjustment to the rear sight puts me right on target. I can't do that on this gun. That's why I'm even considering a dot.
Click to expand...

I think what is being suggested is to consider a dot that has a notch of sorts to use in place of the rear sight. I am aware that some pistols have the rear sight as part of the slide cover (a Canik or two come to mind in this regard) and it is gone when you mount a dot.
 
They are an enthusiast tool, it alone will not improve your proficiency.

Take a professional class by a reputable instructor THAT goes over proper mounting and best practices.

It takes about 3,000 rounds to get close to where you are with irons (per Dave Spaulding whem I took his class and it’s about what I had in it)

Don’t cheap out on dots or mounting plates (direct mounting is the best way but sometimes that’s not an option and you might not know which optic you want to run)

And loctite your screw to the battery tray or you’ll be sorry
And put paint/white whatever marker marks on your adjustment screws once sighted in or again you’ll be sorry

Good luck
 
I agree with most of the info given above and can add my 2 cents.
I've used multiple different brands of Dots on my handguns and I can say that I have 2 favorites that won't break the bank. Either Holosun or Osight are your friends when it comes to a reasonably priced optics. I've tried Viridian, Vortex, Sig, Hex, Mechanik, Holosun and Osight and the latter 2 are the best in my experience. Of those 2, I would recommend Osight over Holosun. The packaging, which includes an instruction page on zeroing your optic, a full set of extra screws (including a couple of extra battery door screws in case one comes loose) and an online guide which details which screws to use with your particular application is a huge PLUS in my opinion. Also the durability, I dropped (the slide actually flipped out of my hands) my mounted Osight on a hard tile floor and it didn't break the glass or lose zero.
The Osight SE enclosed and the Holosun 407K/507k in green are my go-to optics in the RMSc pattern. Osight has also just come out with a K optic which is similar to the Holoson K series but much cheaper.
Whichever optic you choose, you have to be careful and get an optic in the RMSc pattern and NOT the RMR pattern which can be confusing if you're not familiar with mounting systems. Here are some pics of my handguns with the RMSc optics.
 

Attachments

  • Kimber NG 1911 2a.jpg
    Kimber NG 1911 2a.jpg
    341.6 KB · Views: 5
  • 717459748_10230128190622529_2153213012701179911_n.jpg
    717459748_10230128190622529_2153213012701179911_n.jpg
    494.7 KB · Views: 5
  • 705394399_10229996411368130_1466055046299568805_n.jpg
    705394399_10229996411368130_1466055046299568805_n.jpg
    560.2 KB · Views: 4
Last edited:
SimonRL said:
The problem with fixit sticks is the torque driver (the red bit in the photo below) in their pistol optic kit is often too wide to get to the screw holes on a pistol optic because it pushes up against the housing. You need to purchase a bit extension with it. View attachment 114725
Click to expand...
I use long shaft torx bits made by DeWalt to solve that problem, available at Lowe's
 
Thanks for all the input. I just ordered an Osight Model K green dot. It seems to have all the desirable features and the price is reasonable. I'll get it next week. But Its seriously hot here. Not sure when I'll get to the range. Meanwhile, I'll have time to practice presentation and get used to it. (y)
 
@Grayfox,
Lots of good advice here but be aware of the RMSc footprint.

A true RMSc footprint has 4 posts to hold the red dot while some manufacturer's like Holosun use a 2 post variation of RMSc but don't tell you that.

It sounds like from your description your pistol has the RMSc footprint machined into the slide and doesn't need a plate which is great if that's the case. If so, you need to take the cover off and see if it has 2 or 4 post to hold the red dot before you start shopping.

If you have 4 posts you are limited to certain red dots with true RMSc 4 footprints, which sometimes take more research to figure out. If you have just 2 posts you can use any RMSc red dot brand you choose.

I have this problem with my 4 post RMSc footprint Hellcat Pro. I got some poor advice, a couple of times, telling me to grind off the 2 rear posts ... I'm not doing that.

Good luck with your search!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top