Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?

[HayesGreener]

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." – Wyatt Earp​

Wyatt Earp, a legendary lawman and gunfighter of the American Old West, left behind numerous quotes reflecting his philosophy on life, justice, and courage A-Z Quotes+1. Some of his most memorable quotes include:
On Gunfighting and Skill:

• "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." A-Z Quotes+1
• "The most important lesson I learned...was that the winner of a gunplay usually was the one who took his time." A-Z Quotes
• "Every gunfight is different. Every one has its own personality." lastingquotes.com
• "A man who is no good with a gun is likely no good without it either." lastingquotes.com
  On Law and Justice:
• "The law is the law, and I don’t intend to break it." burningforsuccess.com
• "A lawman must always act honorably, and a good gunman always aims to hit the target every time." lastingquotes.com
• "You can’t have law without respect from the people who live by it." lastingquotes.com
  On Courage and Life:
• "I’m not afraid of dying. I’m afraid of not trying." burningforsuccess.com
• "Life’s too short to not take risks." burningforsuccess.com
• "Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway." scripturesavvy.com
• "I’d rather die with my boots on than live without them." burningforsuccess.com
  On Wisdom and Character:
• "Truthfulness is the main thing. If a man is not honest with himself, he can’t be honest with anyone else." lastingquotes.com
• "Don’t let the noise of others drown out your own inner voice." scripturesavvy.com
• "It is not how you place your hand, but how you play your hand." scripturesavvy.com
  These quotes capture Earp’s pragmatic approach to life, his respect for skill and law, and his fearless attitude toward danger. They continue to inspire those interested in courage, integrity, and the frontier spirit burningforsuccess.com+1.
  For a more extensive collection, sources like AZQuotes, LastingQuotes, and BrainyQuote provide hundreds of additional quotations attributed to Wyatt Earp A-Z Quotes+2.

 

[southtex]

I would imagine internet hype, affordability, ease of carry, and capacity are the factors many use to choose their carry weapon. Ballistic performance doesn't truly register

 

[Lab4Us]

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." – Wyatt Earp​

Wyatt Earp, a legendary lawman and gunfighter of the American Old West, left behind numerous quotes reflecting his philosophy on life, justice, and courage A-Z Quotes+1. Some of his most memorable quotes include:
On Gunfighting and Skill:

• "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." A-Z Quotes+1
• "The most important lesson I learned...was that the winner of a gunplay usually was the one who took his time." A-Z Quotes
• "Every gunfight is different. Every one has its own personality." lastingquotes.com
• "A man who is no good with a gun is likely no good without it either." lastingquotes.com
  On Law and Justice:
• "The law is the law, and I don’t intend to break it." burningforsuccess.com
• "A lawman must always act honorably, and a good gunman always aims to hit the target every time." lastingquotes.com
• "You can’t have law without respect from the people who live by it." lastingquotes.com
  On Courage and Life:
• "I’m not afraid of dying. I’m afraid of not trying." burningforsuccess.com
• "Life’s too short to not take risks." burningforsuccess.com
• "Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway." scripturesavvy.com
• "I’d rather die with my boots on than live without them." burningforsuccess.com
  On Wisdom and Character:
• "Truthfulness is the main thing. If a man is not honest with himself, he can’t be honest with anyone else." lastingquotes.com
• "Don’t let the noise of others drown out your own inner voice." scripturesavvy.com
• "It is not how you place your hand, but how you play your hand." scripturesavvy.com
  These quotes capture Earp’s pragmatic approach to life, his respect for skill and law, and his fearless attitude toward danger. They continue to inspire those interested in courage, integrity, and the frontier spirit burningforsuccess.com+1.
  For a more extensive collection, sources like AZQuotes, LastingQuotes, and BrainyQuote provide hundreds of additional quotations attributed to Wyatt Earp A-Z Quotes+2.

For anyone that has access to this https://nation.foxnews.com/watch/d174488f9f83ec41eb40cbb1a43a6d0d/ check out the American Standoff episode on gunfight at the ok corral…give a bit different perspective on Wyatt Earp. All the episodes are pretty interesting…

 

[CEW]

Lightning fast shooting...... How relevant is it in actual.gunfights? I was never fast when I was in the Marines, and not fast now. I want a cartridge that hits hard. I found out long ago the .44 magnum was far more than I was willing to tolerate. .357 magnum is perfect in a revolver. I am comfortable with heavy +P loads in the .45 acp. Make that first shot hit and not mag-dump like a wild monkey.

Fully on board with bigger is better and find I can clear a multitarget drill with an iron sighted .45 long slide, as fast as I can with the optics equipped high speed comped Beretta X-92, shooting 38 shor... I mean 9mm. But I can shave a full second with a .22 victory with optic, but have no plans to rotate it into the defensive gun locker... As for the 38 Super, nice round to reload and shoot.

As for gunfights, I have watched as the goodie and baddie emptied their respective weapons, no one hit and the smiling face behind the only loaded gun left in the fight, won the day, more than once...

 

[Shibadog]

I ANY serious use, only hits matter. Frankly “mag dumps” are pretty silly-seems folks rely on number of rounds than can be launched vs relying on accuracy. One hit beats 20 misses (and let’s not even consider the liability issues as to where those misses wound up-particularly in an urban environment. You KNOW they’ll eventually HIT ‘something” and YOU alone are responsible!). Make the first round go where it should and the odds just shifted dramatically in Your favor.

 

[ECS686]

I ANY serious use, only hits matter. Frankly “mag dumps” are pretty silly-seems folks rely on number of rounds than can be launched vs relying on accuracy. One hit beats 20 misses (and let’s not even consider the liability issues as to where those misses wound up-particularly in an urban environment. You KNOW they’ll eventually HIT ‘something” and YOU alone are responsible!). Make the first round go where it should and the odds just shifted dramatically in Your favor.

I’m not sure if not was Tom Givens that coined the phrase but it’s called “Accuracy by Volume” Amd never works well outside suppressive fire in a Military application

 

[HayesGreener]

 

[Belt Fed]

View attachment 115541

The one on the right is more funner.

 

[BigD]

I ANY serious use, only hits matter. Frankly “mag dumps” are pretty silly-seems folks rely on number of rounds than can be launched vs relying on accuracy. One hit beats 20 misses (and let’s not even consider the liability issues as to where those misses wound up-particularly in an urban environment. You KNOW they’ll eventually HIT ‘something” and YOU alone are responsible!). Make the first round go where it should and the odds just shifted dramatically in Your favor.

I am shocked at the number of cops that do absolutely wild, magazine dumps. If the folks in uniform are that scared, why did they choose that career?

 

[Model 457]

Lightning fast shooting...... How relevant is it in actual.gunfights? I was never fast when I was in the Marines, and not fast now. I want a cartridge that hits hard. I found out long ago the .44 magnum was far more than I was willing to tolerate. .357 magnum is perfect in a revolver. I am comfortable with heavy +P loads in the .45 acp. Make that first shot hit and not mag-dump like a wild monkey.

 

[HayesGreener]

I am shocked at the number of cops that do absolutely wild, magazine dumps. If the folks in uniform are that scared, why did they choose that career?

I have seen body cam footage showing mag dumps but don't believe they are that common. But if you say you aren't scared during gun play, you are a liar, I don't care who you are. But most officers will finish a 25 year career and never fire a shot in anger.

Of all the officer involved shootings I have personal knowledge of, 4 or fewer shots were fired. Volume fire may be appropriate under certain circumstances, like when the adam henry is actively shooting at you, but is not the norm. Things happen so fast when the adrenaline hits, most officers involved in an OIS could not tell you how many rounds they fired. There are about 17,000 agencies in the U.S. Training, training and use of force policy, and marksmanship vary greatly between agencies. Training budgets and leadership are controlling factors

 

[Anchorite]

Shoot until the threat stops, isn’t that what’s taught to law enforcement?

Then when and how the threat stops may well be a matter of interpretation. Did the perp die when the second round hit, or the fifteenth?

 

[HayesGreener]

Here is where training and use of force policy figures prominently. We have a sheriff in Florida whose deputies shot a cop killer who wanted to shoot it out more than 40 times. When reporters asked him why they shot him so many times, he said he believed that was all the ammo they had. He has repeatedly said, if you shoot at our deputies, we will shoot you and we will shoot you a lot. Evil can't be dead enough. Many agencies have that kind of unambiguous use of force policies. Conversely you have clueless policies in cities where politicians believe you can pick up a turd from the clean end. I have spoken to other police chiefs who told me their elected officials thought guns were a necessary evil, and thought firearms training was overly aggressive by its nature. The irony in that is that officers with a robust firearms training program are less likely to go to guns unnecessarily.