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Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." – Wyatt Earp

Wyatt Earp, a legendary lawman and gunfighter of the American Old West, left behind numerous quotes reflecting his philosophy on life, justice, and courage A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes+1. Some of his most memorable quotes include:
On Gunfighting and Skill:

  • "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes+1
  • "The most important lesson I learned...was that the winner of a gunplay usually was the one who took his time." A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes
  • "Every gunfight is different. Every one has its own personality." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
  • "A man who is no good with a gun is likely no good without it either." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
    On Law and Justice:
  • "The law is the law, and I don’t intend to break it." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
  • "A lawman must always act honorably, and a good gunman always aims to hit the target every time." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
  • "You can’t have law without respect from the people who live by it." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
    On Courage and Life:
  • "I’m not afraid of dying. I’m afraid of not trying." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
  • "Life’s too short to not take risks." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
  • "Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway." scripturesavvy.comscripturesavvy.com
  • "I’d rather die with my boots on than live without them." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
    On Wisdom and Character:
  • "Truthfulness is the main thing. If a man is not honest with himself, he can’t be honest with anyone else." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
  • "Don’t let the noise of others drown out your own inner voice." scripturesavvy.comscripturesavvy.com
  • "It is not how you place your hand, but how you play your hand." scripturesavvy.comscripturesavvy.com
    These quotes capture Earp’s pragmatic approach to life, his respect for skill and law, and his fearless attitude toward danger. They continue to inspire those interested in courage, integrity, and the frontier spirit burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com+1.
    For a more extensive collection, sources like AZQuotes, LastingQuotes, and BrainyQuote provide hundreds of additional quotations attributed to Wyatt Earp A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes+2.
 

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." – Wyatt Earp

Wyatt Earp, a legendary lawman and gunfighter of the American Old West, left behind numerous quotes reflecting his philosophy on life, justice, and courage A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes+1. Some of his most memorable quotes include:
On Gunfighting and Skill:

  • "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes+1
  • "The most important lesson I learned...was that the winner of a gunplay usually was the one who took his time." A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes
  • "Every gunfight is different. Every one has its own personality." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
  • "A man who is no good with a gun is likely no good without it either." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
    On Law and Justice:
  • "The law is the law, and I don’t intend to break it." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
  • "A lawman must always act honorably, and a good gunman always aims to hit the target every time." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
  • "You can’t have law without respect from the people who live by it." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
    On Courage and Life:
  • "I’m not afraid of dying. I’m afraid of not trying." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
  • "Life’s too short to not take risks." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
  • "Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway." scripturesavvy.comscripturesavvy.com
  • "I’d rather die with my boots on than live without them." burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com
    On Wisdom and Character:
  • "Truthfulness is the main thing. If a man is not honest with himself, he can’t be honest with anyone else." lastingquotes.comlastingquotes.com
  • "Don’t let the noise of others drown out your own inner voice." scripturesavvy.comscripturesavvy.com
  • "It is not how you place your hand, but how you play your hand." scripturesavvy.comscripturesavvy.com
    These quotes capture Earp’s pragmatic approach to life, his respect for skill and law, and his fearless attitude toward danger. They continue to inspire those interested in courage, integrity, and the frontier spirit burningforsuccess.comburningforsuccess.com+1.
    For a more extensive collection, sources like AZQuotes, LastingQuotes, and BrainyQuote provide hundreds of additional quotations attributed to Wyatt Earp A-Z QuotesA-Z Quotes+2.
For anyone that has access to this https://nation.foxnews.com/watch/d174488f9f83ec41eb40cbb1a43a6d0d/ check out the American Standoff episode on gunfight at the ok corral…give a bit different perspective on Wyatt Earp. All the episodes are pretty interesting…
 
Lightning fast shooting...... How relevant is it in actual.gunfights? I was never fast when I was in the Marines, and not fast now. I want a cartridge that hits hard. I found out long ago the .44 magnum was far more than I was willing to tolerate. .357 magnum is perfect in a revolver. I am comfortable with heavy +P loads in the .45 acp. Make that first shot hit and not mag-dump like a wild monkey.
Fully on board with bigger is better and find I can clear a multitarget drill with an iron sighted .45 long slide, as fast as I can with the optics equipped high speed comped Beretta X-92, shooting 38 shor... I mean 9mm. But I can shave a full second with a .22 victory with optic, but have no plans to rotate it into the defensive gun locker... As for the 38 Super, nice round to reload and shoot.

As for gunfights, I have watched as the goodie and baddie emptied their respective weapons, no one hit and the smiling face behind the only loaded gun left in the fight, won the day, more than once...
 
I ANY serious use, only hits matter. Frankly “mag dumps” are pretty silly-seems folks rely on number of rounds than can be launched vs relying on accuracy. One hit beats 20 misses (and let’s not even consider the liability issues as to where those misses wound up-particularly in an urban environment. You KNOW they’ll eventually HIT ‘something” and YOU alone are responsible!). Make the first round go where it should and the odds just shifted dramatically in Your favor.
 
I ANY serious use, only hits matter. Frankly “mag dumps” are pretty silly-seems folks rely on number of rounds than can be launched vs relying on accuracy. One hit beats 20 misses (and let’s not even consider the liability issues as to where those misses wound up-particularly in an urban environment. You KNOW they’ll eventually HIT ‘something” and YOU alone are responsible!). Make the first round go where it should and the odds just shifted dramatically in Your favor.

I’m not sure if not was Tom Givens that coined the phrase but it’s called “Accuracy by Volume” Amd never works well outside suppressive fire in a Military application
 
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I ANY serious use, only hits matter. Frankly “mag dumps” are pretty silly-seems folks rely on number of rounds than can be launched vs relying on accuracy. One hit beats 20 misses (and let’s not even consider the liability issues as to where those misses wound up-particularly in an urban environment. You KNOW they’ll eventually HIT ‘something” and YOU alone are responsible!). Make the first round go where it should and the odds just shifted dramatically in Your favor.
I am shocked at the number of cops that do absolutely wild, magazine dumps. If the folks in uniform are that scared, why did they choose that career?
 
Lightning fast shooting...... How relevant is it in actual.gunfights? I was never fast when I was in the Marines, and not fast now. I want a cartridge that hits hard. I found out long ago the .44 magnum was far more than I was willing to tolerate. .357 magnum is perfect in a revolver. I am comfortable with heavy +P loads in the .45 acp. Make that first shot hit and not mag-dump like a wild monkey.
1785550190151.jpeg
 
I am shocked at the number of cops that do absolutely wild, magazine dumps. If the folks in uniform are that scared, why did they choose that career?
I have seen body cam footage showing mag dumps but don't believe they are that common. But if you say you aren't scared during gun play, you are a liar, I don't care who you are. But most officers will finish a 25 year career and never fire a shot in anger.

Of all the officer involved shootings I have personal knowledge of, 4 or fewer shots were fired. Volume fire may be appropriate under certain circumstances, like when the adam henry is actively shooting at you, but is not the norm. Things happen so fast when the adrenaline hits, most officers involved in an OIS could not tell you how many rounds they fired. There are about 17,000 agencies in the U.S. Training, training and use of force policy, and marksmanship vary greatly between agencies. Training budgets and leadership are controlling factors
 
Here is where training and use of force policy figures prominently. We have a sheriff in Florida whose deputies shot a cop killer who wanted to shoot it out more than 40 times. When reporters asked him why they shot him so many times, he said he believed that was all the ammo they had. He has repeatedly said, if you shoot at our deputies, we will shoot you and we will shoot you a lot. Evil can't be dead enough. Many agencies have that kind of unambiguous use of force policies. Conversely you have clueless policies in cities where politicians believe you can pick up a turd from the clean end. I have spoken to other police chiefs who told me their elected officials thought guns were a necessary evil, and thought firearms training was overly aggressive by its nature. The irony in that is that officers with a robust firearms training program are less likely to go to guns unnecessarily.
 
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I have seen body cam footage showing mag dumps but don't believe they are that common. But if you say you aren't scared during gun play, you are a liar, I don't care who you are. But most officers will finish a 25 year career and never fire a shot in anger.

Of all the officer involved shootings I have personal knowledge of, 4 or fewer shots were fired. Volume fire may be appropriate under certain circumstances, like when the adam henry is actively shooting at you, but is not the norm. Things happen so fast when the adrenaline hits, most officers involved in an OIS could not tell you how many rounds they fired. There are about 17,000 agencies in the U.S. Training, training and use of force policy, and marksmanship vary greatly between agencies. Training budgets and leadership are controlling factors


I have a couple decades of experience teaching from classes at FLETC to a state LE Academy to private sector stuff like Ramgemaster John Hearne Chuck Haggard and several others.

Here is the problem with LE. Standards on everythjng have been watered down they train on targets with extremely large unrealistic max point scoring zones (also poorly placed for tactical anatomy that while you get max points won’t effect a human like somewhere else would)

They have went to the go fast shoot til the threat goes away which is never good outside a military offensive operation you can’t shoot faster than you can asses and expect to make good hits in the right places. Is there a time sure but it’s a very narrow window and an outlier

While the term mag dump keeps getting thrown around and several do the issue while several do dunp mags it’s the rapid split times, shootings under 7 rounds usually end the fight by effective hits (as seen in several BWC) shootings over 8 and up to 15 rounds are cyclic split times suspect gives up or flees vs incapacitated by a effective hits. That is because the go fast BS and everyone goes him, why one cop carries 147 rounds (whatever but you get my point) mindset

Then factor in the majority of LEO’s don’t train on anything but those huge B27 type targets and only on the flat range no tactical anatomy like how to hit the aorta or brain stem when they are sideways (shooting on 3x5 cards is a great training tool that whole aim small miss small)

Then factor in most agencies took away any incentives of extra pay or getting time off or organized pistol matches.

In the 80’s and 90’s there was still a good amount of support for PPC and other pistol matches, cars in agency lots or in lockers had NRA match related stickers that has absolutely zero support today.

Then factor in today in the 80’s (and way earlier whem you look at legends like Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryson and Frank Hamer) they didn’t play a lot of golf or watch a lot of TV or have YouTube, instead they dry fired and shot live rounds almost every day

Even in the 80’s and 90’s before streaming TV shows were once a week and you either recorded it or caught it the next week.

And the mentality of new LEO’s I say new but I saw this around the late 90’s take shape.

A 10% 80% 10% breakdown.

Top 10% are your expert shooters that want to out in time they go to trainings and matches on their own time and dime. They are the Bill Jordan’s of today

Middle 80% are the average and while a few might be solid up near the top 10% in score the MAJORITY are slightly above minimum standards and several only pass by a few points and habe to reshoot every year at least once and then smart off “good enough til next year” (and those are the shoktings that become an abortion on body cameras)

The the bottom 10% are the ones that fail and cry to the union so the agency dumbs down the course and thus the atmosphere of “No Cop Left Behind” is here.

And while there is still a few agencies left that so train most do not. An example is LAPD quals and does other shooting once a month.
NYPD only quals twice a year

LAPD hit factor around 65%
NYPD hit factor 20%

Also another topic, but nobody gets failed out of academies or FTO programs much these days. I watched first hand a cadet not pass fireams at a state academy and they let him walk graduation but h wasnt certified and had to come back for specialty training the next week. And I know that’s not the only place that has the soft hamds approach these days.
 
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I have a couple decades of experience teaching from classes at FLETC to a state LE Academy to private sector stuff like Ramgemaster John Hearne Chuck Haggard and several others.

Here is the problem with LE. Standards on everythjng have been watered down they train on targets with extremely large unrealistic max point scoring zones (also poorly placed for tactical anatomy that while you get max points won’t effect a human like somewhere else would)

They have went to the go fast shoot til the threat goes away which is never good outside a military offensive operation you can’t shoot faster than you can asses and expect to make good hits in the right places. Is there a time sure but it’s a very narrow window and an outlier

While the term mag dump keeps getting thrown around and several do the issue while several do dunp mags it’s the rapid split times, shootings under 7 rounds usually end the fight by effective hits (as seen in several BWC) shootings over 8 and up to 15 rounds are cyclic split times suspect gives up or flees vs incapacitated by a effective hits. That is because the go fast BS and everyone goes him, why one cop carries 147 rounds (whatever but you get my point) mindset

Then factor in the majority of LEO’s don’t train on anything but those huge B27 type targets and only on the flat range no tactical anatomy like how to hit the aorta or brain stem when they are sideways (shooting on 3x5 cards is a great training tool that whole aim small miss small)

Then factor in most agencies took away any incentives of extra pay or getting time off or organized pistol matches.

In the 80’s and 90’s there was still a good amount of support for PPC and other pistol matches, cars in agency lots or in lockers had NRA match related stickers that has absolutely zero support today.

Then factor in today in the 80’s (and way earlier whem you look at legends like Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryson and Frank Hamer) they didn’t play a lot of golf or watch a lot of TV or have YouTube, instead they dry fired and shot live rounds almost every day

Even in the 80’s and 90’s before streaming TV shows were once a week and you either recorded it or caught it the next week.

And the mentality of new LEO’s I say new but I saw this around the late 90’s take shape.

A 10% 80% 10% breakdown.

Top 10% are your expert shooters that want to out in time they go to trainings and matches on their own time and dime. They are the Bill Jordan’s of today

Middle 80% are the average and while a few might be solid up near the top 10% in score the MAJORITY are slightly above minimum standards and several only pass by a few points and habe to reshoot every year at least once and then smart off “good enough til next year” (and those are the shoktings that become an abortion on body cameras)

The the bottom 10% are the ones that fail and cry to the union so the agency dumbs down the course and thus the atmosphere of “No Cop Left Behind” is here.

And while there is still a few agencies left that so train most do not. An example is LAPD quals and does other shooting once a month.
NYPD only quals twice a year

LAPD hit factor around 65%
NYPD hit factor 20%

Also another topic, but nobody gets failed out of academies or FTO programs much these days. I watched first hand a cadet not pass fireams at a state academy and they let him walk graduation but h wasnt certified and had to come back for specialty training the next week. And I know that’s not the only place that has the soft hamds approach these days.
NYPD's 12 pound trigger weight on their Glocks didn't help. I understand new recruits are now getting 5 pound triggers though, somebody woke up.
 
NYPD's 12 pound trigger weight on their Glocks didn't help. I understand new recruits are now getting 5 pound triggers though, somebody woke up.


Yes the standard weight trigger started being a thing for NYPD in 2019 so while good theor hit percentage is still dismal at 20%

NYPD also field tested a hundred or so FN 509 MRD with optic. A friend is a retired NYPD and civilian Rangemaster said it is getting approved they are just waiting on downtown to sign it and make official bur with the new socialist wording about grocery stores and rent who knows
 
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