10mm vs. 9mm — Revisiting the Handgun Cartridge Debate
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Hammer67
Professional
Seriously though, I don't know anyone who knows anything about handguns and calibers who thinks 9mm and 10mm are comparable, or even worth comparing. It's pretty obvious they are significantly different. What would be more interesting (and useful) to me would be an in-depth terminal ballistic comparison of 10mm vs .357 Magnum.
HansGruber
Ronin
Given equal bullet weights & types at equal velocity…the 10mm will cut a wider but shallower wound channel than .357 Magnum.
That’s about the only thing that will be different, or possibly matter.
Hammer67
Professional
That's true if you're talking about anemic 10mm loads that share more or less the same ballistics as 9mm (or .40 S&W), but 10mm is capable of being loaded to a lot more than just that. You can find 10mm loads that get to 700 ft lbs M.E. - I don't know of any 9mm load than can get close to that. And when you're talking about hunting and defense from large critters, that's a difference matters.
Bassbob
Emissary
Yeah but he's comparing it to .357 Mag not 9mm.
Hammer67
Professional
Doh! That's what I get for responding when I should have been going to sleep!
In the case of .357 Mag, I'd generally agree.
HansGruber
Ronin
KE, by itself, doesn’t cause any damage.
If you have two bullets—one with 400ft/lbs and one with 600 ft/lbs, both of which (and we’re talking different designs at different velocities, here) cut a .5” wide by 18” deep hole…the only thing the 600ft/lb bullet has is more recoil and a slower follow-up.
It’s the FBI. I was LAPD and had my go-arounds with them. Miami shootout shows they were definitely not street cops. Just my 2cents worth. Personally. I like the 10mm.
Bassbob
Emissary
Bet you got some stories.
Hawkeye924
Operator
Let’s see, I seem to remember a little saying from my younger years and please I am saying this in a respectful manner.
It goes, “Different Strokes for Different Folks and so on and so on…”. I purchased a XDM 10mm OSP Elite and put through 100 rounds and I couldn’t believe it was a Bear defense round with the proper ammunition. It has less kick than my 9mm. I may not own any Colt M1911’s, however I do own a 4” S.A. 1911 Range Officer Champion Elite (Love it!!!). I also own several Smith & Wesson wheel guns in .44 mag, .357 mag., .38 SPL and love them all. I guess what I am saying is that we are Pretty Damn Lucky to live in a FREE Country thanks to sacrifices made by ALL of Our VETERANS and Their Families. Which reminds me of another saying. “Those who kneel for Our Flag Have NEVER BEEN HANDED A FOLDED FLAG”. May GOD Bless America and help us survive the rest of Bidens’ term.
RickAnderson
Custom
9MM more Velocity! Its the KE that makes it deadly!
.45 ACP more Mass! Its the mass and size that gives it knockdown power.
Plus the 9MM cartridge is smaller, you can carry more in the same space!
10MM nearly as much mass as .45 ACP and the same Velocity as 9MM, significantly more KE than both of them!
The cartridge is smaller than .45 ACP, but larger than 9MM, you can carry more in the same space of .45 ACP.
I read the reason the military went to 5.56 vs 7.62 was because an infantryman could carry twice as many rounds. The military going to 9MM, and the U.S. went to it very late, was likely just to conform to NATO standards.
Having shot 10MM, I don't put to much stock in the FBI recommendation that 10MM is too hot to handle properly. (I may be mischaracterizing the FBI assessment). Its a little more felt recoil than .45 ACP, if you're accustomed to .45ACP, switching to 10MM is no problem at all.
.45 ACP more Mass! Its the mass and size that gives it knockdown power.
Plus the 9MM cartridge is smaller, you can carry more in the same space!
10MM nearly as much mass as .45 ACP and the same Velocity as 9MM, significantly more KE than both of them!
The cartridge is smaller than .45 ACP, but larger than 9MM, you can carry more in the same space of .45 ACP.
I read the reason the military went to 5.56 vs 7.62 was because an infantryman could carry twice as many rounds. The military going to 9MM, and the U.S. went to it very late, was likely just to conform to NATO standards.
Having shot 10MM, I don't put to much stock in the FBI recommendation that 10MM is too hot to handle properly. (I may be mischaracterizing the FBI assessment). Its a little more felt recoil than .45 ACP, if you're accustomed to .45ACP, switching to 10MM is no problem at all.
RickAnderson
Custom
I'm convinced the Springfield Armory XD-M is the most underrated and undiscovered pistol on the market.
If you compare the available pistols chambered in 10MM, it comes out as the top one IMO. I am seeing more and more reviews comparing 10MM stating the XD-M is their favorite.
I have 3 of them, in 9MM, 10MM and .45 ACP.
I have put the Powder River Precision Trigger Kit in two of them. It takes a very good trigger out of the box and turns it into an exceptional trigger.
I just got an FN 510. It has the same action as the Glock Safe Action i.e. the slide cocks the striker to the half-cock, the trigger is double action, but since the striker is already at half cock, you pull it to finish cocking it and then it lets go. FN did a much better job making a smooth trigger than Glock. Still, till it breaks in, you get an inconsistent and pretty heavy wall before the break.
Shooting my XD-M Elite OSP 10MM(w/ Trigger Kit) side by side with my FN 510, its a tough call, the trigger is the tie breaker IMO, and that is a bit biased since I have trigger kit on the XD-M. Keep in mind, the FN 510 comes with a 22 rnd extended magazine, while the XD-M 10MM only has 16 round magazines available for it.
HayesGreener
Hellcat
The problem with heavier recoiling calibers is with training and qualifying novice shooter recruits. Cost of ammo, improvements in 9mm ammo, and wear and tear on guns were additional considerations for FBI recommending and moving back to 9mm.
RickAnderson
Custom
Ahh, that makes total sense.....
My first time every shooting was military training on the 1911....
And it was a very humbling experience and did immediately filter out the natural shooters from those that needed to "learn" how to shoot....
The gal next to me was hitting the target every shot. Meanwhile I was putting the rounds in the dirt in front of me on every shot....
My instructor had me turn around facing away from the bench and told me he would load my pistol and chamber the round for me..... ....he lied...
Had me turn around, pick-up the pistol and take a shot, as I pulled the trigger I yanked the muzzle downward anticipating the recoil.... ...since the unloaded pistol never went off, I saw exactly what I was doing wrong....
My shooting immediately improved from there....
I have seen people post or ask me, I really want a .45 ACP, but everyone tells me I need to buy a .22lr pistol first to learn on....
I always reply, starting with a small caliper and then moving up is a really good strategy, but there is nothing wrong with buying the pistol your really want, just as long as you understand it will take longer to learn and get proficient with the bigger caliper with no previous experience....
Lexie__M
Custom
Yes the so called macho FBI in their textbook example to still use in training of a Charlie Chaplin take down and lost.
Of course they had to blame someone else and that was: Oh the 9mm was too weak
Then they invented the 10mm.
I short order: these rough tough macho FBI were crying again: Our limp wrist can't handle such a huge cannon.
So then back to the drawing board and they shortened the 10mm and called it a 10mm short
Oh no the rough trough macho FBI had a problem with the name "Short" so they call it 40 cal.
I too believe, as most people did: if a 10mm is to strong for the rough tough macho FBI, many that is not for me
In ending, many have come to realize the 10mm is stronger and more powerful but find out for yourself and not believe the FBI crap able being able to handle with ease
Lexie__M
Custom
I too agree that Springfield Armory XDM-elite is so ignored by the ones who are great at marketing as example Sig P-320 with FCU and the military contract or Beretta 92 with military contract etc.
However "Word of Mouth" is still in play
However "Word of Mouth" is still in play
RickAnderson
Custom
Think back to H.S. Physics....
Kinetic Energy = 1/2 X Mass X (Velocity)Squared
KE=1/2MV^2
Yes, Kinetic Energy isn't the end all and only measurement of the damage a round can do, just as important is how much energy you can impart on the target to do damage.
But Kinetic Energy is a big factor to consider, and often the biggest truth teller of how much damage it can do.
And KE is why the tiny 9mm can even compete with the big ol' .45 ACP, they are roughly the same KE, some of the hotter NATO and +P's are more than .45 ACP. Most range ammo on the market the MV varies (and that is a huge factor in the KE) and its a toss up, some 9mm has more KE than .45ACP and some .45ACP has more KE than 9mm.
That is truth teller on the 10mm, roughly 50% more KE than the closely even 9mm and .45 ACP.
BUT, only roughly a 10% increase in felt recoil over .45 ACP.
Granted, 10MM is a 50% increase in felt recoil over 9mm. I'm using Power Factor for the ammo to compare the felt recoil.
Most 9mm and .45ACP is a little more or less than 400 ft-lbs of KE.
Most 10mm is a little more or less than 600 ft-lbs of KE.
And yes, all three calipers have lots of commonly available ammo that is almost 100 ft-lbs less than those figures, as well as less commonly available ammo that is also almost 100 ft-lbs more than those figures. So yes there are lots of games that can be played saying look at this compared to this, its not that much more or less.....