Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “1911 Carry Conditions Explained” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/1911-carry-conditions-explained/.
1911 Carry Conditions Explained
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Valkyrie14
Alpha
Good article explaining the various conditions.Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “1911 Carry Conditions Explained” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/1911-carry-conditions-explained/.
Sgt Betelgeuse
Alpha
New member, old player. Great article from a great thinker. What was said about adrenaline is absolutely true. Add on top of that age, arthritis and/or disabilities and you might as well carry a Glock. Also differences in individual models may necessitate a different strategy. My SA Loaded is easily de-cocked with one hand, however my SA Ronin must be with 2 hands. Just can’t do it safely with one hand. The biggest problems I have with 1911 is the weight and proper holster. Love to see a holster article for this fine EDC. I always carry condition one with no reservations. Never a neg discharge. Also with 2 safeties, condition one is a no brainer.
hawkeye52
Operator
About 50 yrs ago me and a buddy were out with our deer rifles getting ready for deer season. When he stopped to pull up his pants. He pulled his 1911 in 38super out of his holster and in doing so disengaged the safety and by mistake put his finger inside of the trigger guard and when he pulled his pants up he ended up in shooting himself in the right foot.
Ended up taking him to the hospital in Reno to have surgery done.
Ended up taking him to the hospital in Reno to have surgery done.
.45 Cal guy
Alpha
Per the article on Condition One. "immediate, reactive purposes". Says it all. I reiterate again. Train, train n train so more. Than when you really have it down. Train some more.
I like to make my own holsters. I carry my SA V-10 as shown with the loop of paracord around the hammer & grip safety. I just grab the top knot to pull it off.
The longer paracord on the empty holster is for an M&P EZ I have as well. It keeps the pistol in the holster, and if the thumb safety is bumped off, the hammer still cannot contact the firing pin. Perhaps Condition WTF?
Sgt Betelgeuse
Alpha
I live and work medicine in Las Vegas. Luckily for him it was Reno. Better medicine there.
hawkeye52
Operator
Well it was still a ride from Susanville, CA about 90 miles. First we went to the hospital there were they stopped the bleeding and cleaned it.
Tenbones
Master Class
The email I received containing this article was titled: Ayoob: Are You Making This Dangerous 1911 Mistake? I read the article and afterwards I thought to myself, that's an odd title for what the article was about....sort of misleading. Anyway, I'm relieved to see the title was clarified in the OP.
FistofFreedom
Alpha
JMB added the thumb safety specifically to allow the 1911 to be carried with a round in the chamber cocked and locked. Here is the description from the August 19, 1913 patent.
Heretofore pistols of this class were provided with automatic safety devices which made it impossible to fire one or several shots unless a cartridge was in the barrel, a charged magazine in the grip and all parts were in the proper closed and locked condition, the hammer cocked and the grip properly grasped to hold the pistol in the firing position.
If, with the pistol thus made ready for instant use, the occasion for firing or for continued firing had passed,
and it was desired to make the pistol temporarily safe for carrying, it was necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position, and special means were provided for enabling the lowering of the hammer to be performed, if necessary, by the use of only the hand holding the pistol. Experience, however, has shown that the exigencies of active military service make it at times necessary that the pistol be carried for a longer or shorter time with a loaded cartridge in
the barrel, a charged magazine in its seat and with the hammer cocked, so as to still remain ready for instantly firing a maximum number of shots without requiring any initial movement, except the pulling of the trigger. At the same time, it is as necessary that the pistol can be made safe to positively prevent its accidental discharge while being so carried. For fulfilling, as nearly as possible, these necessary but contradictory requirements, an additional manually operated combined slide-lock and hammer- lock of novel construction and with additional functions has been provided on the pistol, which serves to at will lock the breech-slide and the firing mechanism and make the pistol positively safe against discharge though a cartridge is in the chamber and the hammer is cocked, or to at will release these parts and make the pistol ready for firing; with this added device the locking or releasing of the slide and of the hammer require only a slight pressure by the thumb of the hand grasping the grip of the pistol, without demanding such attention,
care and exertion as are required for cocking the hammer or for releasing the lowering the same.
Heretofore pistols of this class were provided with automatic safety devices which made it impossible to fire one or several shots unless a cartridge was in the barrel, a charged magazine in the grip and all parts were in the proper closed and locked condition, the hammer cocked and the grip properly grasped to hold the pistol in the firing position.
If, with the pistol thus made ready for instant use, the occasion for firing or for continued firing had passed,
and it was desired to make the pistol temporarily safe for carrying, it was necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position, and special means were provided for enabling the lowering of the hammer to be performed, if necessary, by the use of only the hand holding the pistol. Experience, however, has shown that the exigencies of active military service make it at times necessary that the pistol be carried for a longer or shorter time with a loaded cartridge in
the barrel, a charged magazine in its seat and with the hammer cocked, so as to still remain ready for instantly firing a maximum number of shots without requiring any initial movement, except the pulling of the trigger. At the same time, it is as necessary that the pistol can be made safe to positively prevent its accidental discharge while being so carried. For fulfilling, as nearly as possible, these necessary but contradictory requirements, an additional manually operated combined slide-lock and hammer- lock of novel construction and with additional functions has been provided on the pistol, which serves to at will lock the breech-slide and the firing mechanism and make the pistol positively safe against discharge though a cartridge is in the chamber and the hammer is cocked, or to at will release these parts and make the pistol ready for firing; with this added device the locking or releasing of the slide and of the hammer require only a slight pressure by the thumb of the hand grasping the grip of the pistol, without demanding such attention,
care and exertion as are required for cocking the hammer or for releasing the lowering the same.
I had the great fortune of learning from the "master" in 1980 at Gunsite. I attended as an active duty police officer on my own dime. Following my completion of the 101 course I was able to convince my police chief to allow me to carry my Colt Combat Commander on duty and train the rest of the department in the function and carry of the 1911 45ACP. I have carried that same gun on duty and as an EDC for over 40 years. I always carry condition one and have never had an AD, nor did anyone on my department in the 21 years I served there. There is only one way to carry a self defense handgun that makes any sense and that is Condition 1.Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “1911 Carry Conditions Explained” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/1911-carry-conditions-explained/.
Silvermane
Alpha
If you choose to carry in Condition 1, here's a tip:
Before buying a holster, ensure that it's properly designed to carry in Condition 1.
A couple years ago, I purchased a Galco leather shoulder rig (Galco Vertical Holster System VHS 4.0) for my SA Ronin 1911 .45. After treating & breaking it in properly, according to the instructions, I found that holstering the Ronin in Condition 1 was a PITA and I couldn't figure out why. It wouldn't seat properly and kept getting hung-up and required fidgeting it around to get it to seat properly. And most of the time, fighting it to seat properly also flipped the safety to off without me realizing it at first (in other words, Condition 5 mentioned in the article). Not an ideal situation.
So I called Galco support to ask what's going on and if I got a defective holster. They told me that the holster wasn't designed to carry a .45 in Condition 1. Condition 2 was the recommended carry method. A $200+ holster, made by one of the most famous & best holster-makers in the world...and it failed at this common carry method for a .45?
I was livid at wasting that much money on this holster and asked why this limitation wasn't mentioned in the sales literature/website, so customers would know before buying. No real answer from the rep...almost like they knew it was a D move to keep the issue a secret, but could only shrug their shoulders.
I'm in a CCW state and always carry. But now, I have to carry the .45 in Condition 2, until I can find another suitable shoulder rig that's designed for carrying in Condition 1. And my dissatisfaction with Galco means I'm unlikely to purchase another holster from them for my other pistols...unless by some magic, they see this post and offer me a properly redesigned shoulder rig.
Before buying a holster, ensure that it's properly designed to carry in Condition 1.
A couple years ago, I purchased a Galco leather shoulder rig (Galco Vertical Holster System VHS 4.0) for my SA Ronin 1911 .45. After treating & breaking it in properly, according to the instructions, I found that holstering the Ronin in Condition 1 was a PITA and I couldn't figure out why. It wouldn't seat properly and kept getting hung-up and required fidgeting it around to get it to seat properly. And most of the time, fighting it to seat properly also flipped the safety to off without me realizing it at first (in other words, Condition 5 mentioned in the article). Not an ideal situation.
So I called Galco support to ask what's going on and if I got a defective holster. They told me that the holster wasn't designed to carry a .45 in Condition 1. Condition 2 was the recommended carry method. A $200+ holster, made by one of the most famous & best holster-makers in the world...and it failed at this common carry method for a .45?
I was livid at wasting that much money on this holster and asked why this limitation wasn't mentioned in the sales literature/website, so customers would know before buying. No real answer from the rep...almost like they knew it was a D move to keep the issue a secret, but could only shrug their shoulders.
I'm in a CCW state and always carry. But now, I have to carry the .45 in Condition 2, until I can find another suitable shoulder rig that's designed for carrying in Condition 1. And my dissatisfaction with Galco means I'm unlikely to purchase another holster from them for my other pistols...unless by some magic, they see this post and offer me a properly redesigned shoulder rig.
Vietnam Vet
Alpha
I've been carrying the 1911 as my defensive handgun since I was a teen. Even before going to Gunsite and learning from Col. Cooper, I always carried my 1911 in condition 1. I've done so while in the military, as a law enforcement officer, and as a private citizen. There is no other way to carry this type of handgun. I have used a Yaqui slide holster for concealed carry for many years and feel it was designed for the 1911 specifically. When I taught formal self defense classes to civilians, I always stressed that if they wanted to carry a 1911, the only efficient way to carry it was in condition 1. If you are carrying the 1911 in any other condition, you are just carrying a very short club. A heavy one to be sure, but a club none the less.
gordie
Operator
I was a young officer on a department whose service weapon was a Colt Model70 in .45Automatic which could be carried on or off duty in the proscribed condition 1. When driving to work with my .45 in a side holster my Moto Guzzi hit a small amount of water and went on it's side causing the .45 to leave the holster skid across the pavement and strike the curb muzzle first even with that force it did not discharge, so you may say I am a true believer of condition 1 and thanks to John Moses Browning !
Galco isn't the company it used to be when I started carrying everyday for work in 1970. Your best bet nowadays is to find a true custom leather maker, pay a bit more and wait (unfortunately) for weeks or even months for the maker to complete the holster built the way you want.
Here's some of my favorites. Some of these have holsters in stock and ready to ship. You might find their holsters on ebay or gunbroker:
Grizzle Leather
Privateer Gun Leather
Nightengale Holsters
Overland Gun Leather
TT Gunleather
Bulman Gun Leather
Rafter-l Gun Leather
5 Shot Leather Holsters
Palmetto Leather
Rosen Holsters
Kramer Holsters
Sparks Holsters
Garrity Gun Leather
Prince Gun Leather
Nelson Holsters
Silvermane
Alpha
Thank you for the advice & recommendations. I'll look into them. I'll also check them out on GunBroker, since I don't spend enough time there already...LOL.
I use Condition Two/hammer down on a chambered round quite often. Go ahead, let me have it, I'm ready. Like everyone else nowadays, I use both hands to fire the pistol. So, I use my left hand thumb to release the safety as I place it on the pistol onto the pistol and my right hand. I especially use Condition Two when carrying with a shoulder holster. I don't practice "fast draws" from any holster. At 75 years old, I'm carrying the gun as a last resort, not for a confrontation where fractions of a second count. If I am in that situation, I'm probably screwed. Same thing with my Browning HP. I have found that many holsters do not like the extended safeties of some pistols. I have a Galco that does not like the safety of my Sig Sauer 1911 Ultra. The standard safety of my Colt Gov't is good to go. The safety on the Browning is also prone to disengagement of it's Galco. So, I have chosen to go the Condition Two route. As for lowering the hammer, I agree that doing it with one hand is a good way to lose a digit...or worse. I place my left thumb or index finger between the hammer and the slide and release the hammer onto them. If I were ever to get into something serious, I would engage the safety until I got myself calmed down and then take care of the hammer.
40 years of carrying Condition 1, my prefered holster is a Bianchi Pistol Pocket (IWB) because of it's concealability with most light clothing. That being said the Yaqui slide and Galco D155WCD (speed slide (OWB) also work for me depending on my clothing choice. All three strong side carry as was my duty. Thousands of repetitions in drawing.
There a plenty of similar style holsters out there, you just need to find one that works and train with and stay with it. Under stress you will always revert to the way you train/carry most. Shoulder holsters are good for portly individuals but require a special draw technique to keep from chasing it while drawing.
HansGruber
Ronin
Never cared for the Yaqui-style.
Invisibleflash
Elite
Gave up on 1911's ages ago. They are for FUDDS or gun fondlers. Archaic design, low capacity. Yes they do a good job fpr pistol whipping someone, but don't care about that. In this day and age, you need every advantage and 1911 does not deliver. I do have a Colt Custom shop 1911 in hard chrome finish I need to sell. I had found it last year in storage. Forgot I even had it. Have zero use for it. But it IS super accurate.
Now...I have made some big changes to my gun lineup...
Any guns I get now have to be disposable. In SHTFF, the government will confiscate guns at roadblocks just as they did in Katrina. I'm sorry I didn't buy a dozen or two cheap AKs back in the day when they were $150 each. But what ugly POS they were. Ugly or not, they shoot and I would love them as disposable guns now.
For a cheap car gun that I can kinda afford to lose, I settled on M&P FPC 9mm. I like a 5.7 FN PS90 for a car gun. Small footprint, better trajectory than a 9mm. And it won't throw hot brass in a passenger's face in the car, as it ejects spent cases downwards. It is also not as loud as an AR. You shoot an AR in the car cabin and say goodbye to your ears. BUT...outfitted with a mini ACOG the PS90 cost a fortune to lose to jackboot confiscation. Even with no sights the PS90 is too much to lose.
For sights I use Monstrum Ghost Red Dot Sight $70. Lots of cheap red dot options, you check them out. For iron sights I go with Adegrin Flip Up Sights Gen2 MB-US $26 It is a decent build copy of Magpul MBUS. I don't like them better than Magpul, but I like them better if they get confiscated. Just as I like ACOGs and Aimpoints for sights...but I can't afford to lose em to confiscation.
For pistols it is 9mm G3's and Caniks. (Cheapest models $260 - $360). Caniks are better, BUT if you lose the Caniks, it is $80 - $100 more than a G3 if they are confiscated. Just depends on your wallet thickness and what you can afford to lose and how many disposable guns you can afford to stock in the deep preps.
In any case...everything has to be decent quality, reliable and disposable. I use Underwood solid copper +P+ in the FPC, but just for the car gun. I can't afford to shoot much of it otherwise. The longer barrel (16.25"), the solid copper bullet and the +P+ load makes it a much more potent gun than a 9mm pistol with 4-inch barrel and standard load.
The S&W M&P FPC is overpriced for what it is. And even at that high price it is sold out around here at all the gun stores. But it is compact and won't blow your ears out like a 5.56. It is just how things are with how guns and ammo are priced nowadays. It is more of a $450 gun than a $600 gun. I like it better than the Ruger folding carbine. It is cheaper and folds smaller. If you want a folding 9mm that is even cheaper, look at Kel-Tec. I won't use them. But if you are poor, you get what you can.
For shotguns I have the usual suspects. High $, reliable, semi-auto...for the house. For the car I got 3 cheap Remington 870 pumps I bought 15 years ago for $250 each. Can't afford to lose the Italian guns. Wish I had bought more of the cheap Remington's, but I never thought we would be in the shape we are in now...not in a million years.
Don't be a gun fondling larper. Pick out good gun platforms. Stock up on them. Have them identical...I said IDENTICAL for seamless swapping. Don't be a gun fondler. That time is over.
Now...I have made some big changes to my gun lineup...
Any guns I get now have to be disposable. In SHTFF, the government will confiscate guns at roadblocks just as they did in Katrina. I'm sorry I didn't buy a dozen or two cheap AKs back in the day when they were $150 each. But what ugly POS they were. Ugly or not, they shoot and I would love them as disposable guns now.
For a cheap car gun that I can kinda afford to lose, I settled on M&P FPC 9mm. I like a 5.7 FN PS90 for a car gun. Small footprint, better trajectory than a 9mm. And it won't throw hot brass in a passenger's face in the car, as it ejects spent cases downwards. It is also not as loud as an AR. You shoot an AR in the car cabin and say goodbye to your ears. BUT...outfitted with a mini ACOG the PS90 cost a fortune to lose to jackboot confiscation. Even with no sights the PS90 is too much to lose.
For sights I use Monstrum Ghost Red Dot Sight $70. Lots of cheap red dot options, you check them out. For iron sights I go with Adegrin Flip Up Sights Gen2 MB-US $26 It is a decent build copy of Magpul MBUS. I don't like them better than Magpul, but I like them better if they get confiscated. Just as I like ACOGs and Aimpoints for sights...but I can't afford to lose em to confiscation.
For pistols it is 9mm G3's and Caniks. (Cheapest models $260 - $360). Caniks are better, BUT if you lose the Caniks, it is $80 - $100 more than a G3 if they are confiscated. Just depends on your wallet thickness and what you can afford to lose and how many disposable guns you can afford to stock in the deep preps.
In any case...everything has to be decent quality, reliable and disposable. I use Underwood solid copper +P+ in the FPC, but just for the car gun. I can't afford to shoot much of it otherwise. The longer barrel (16.25"), the solid copper bullet and the +P+ load makes it a much more potent gun than a 9mm pistol with 4-inch barrel and standard load.
The S&W M&P FPC is overpriced for what it is. And even at that high price it is sold out around here at all the gun stores. But it is compact and won't blow your ears out like a 5.56. It is just how things are with how guns and ammo are priced nowadays. It is more of a $450 gun than a $600 gun. I like it better than the Ruger folding carbine. It is cheaper and folds smaller. If you want a folding 9mm that is even cheaper, look at Kel-Tec. I won't use them. But if you are poor, you get what you can.
For shotguns I have the usual suspects. High $, reliable, semi-auto...for the house. For the car I got 3 cheap Remington 870 pumps I bought 15 years ago for $250 each. Can't afford to lose the Italian guns. Wish I had bought more of the cheap Remington's, but I never thought we would be in the shape we are in now...not in a million years.
Don't be a gun fondling larper. Pick out good gun platforms. Stock up on them. Have them identical...I said IDENTICAL for seamless swapping. Don't be a gun fondler. That time is over.