Anniversary of Custers cluster
- Thread starter Sld1959
- Start date
Bassbob
Emissary
A day I celebrate every year. Actually I celebrate the 26th too as the Battle of The Greasy Grass lasted into the 26th. I disagree about the no winners. No doubt the wiping out of the 7th sped up the timetable, but the Lakota, Cheyenne and all native tribes were living on borrowed time from the first European footsteps on the continent. So we're keeping this one. I was on the battlefield a couple years ago, but I was a couple days late. I will be there on 6/25/26, that's for certain. As long as I am still living.
I celebrate December 21st too.
It's worth noting both of those "Military underestimations" were brought on by extreme arrogance. With all their military might it seems that in reality the only fights they could actually win were the ones they waged against camps full of women and children.
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Sign of the times
It was accepted practice
Govt was out to conquer the continent
As was every nation on earth.
No one celebrates the demise of the Polynesians in the pacific and Hawaii , but yet here we are. Sandy beaches and a culture lost, but yet Indians get front page.
Every culture got massacred and war. Way it was.
Mayans, Persians, fast forward to the jews, american natives.
How about Ukrainian’s in 2022
Bassbob
Emissary
Indians get front page ? What paper you reading brother ? The way I see it the government atrocities didn't end when Crazy Horse finally brought his band in. Indian schools, the rez. All bullshit perpetrated by white christians well into the 20th century. Only ones I see on the front page are the ones they're talking about giving reparations to. If indians were black the government would have paid them for The Black Hills.
The Night Rider
Professional
I'm not a historian but a couple years ago I decided that I wanted to study on things that I really didn't know about. One of my areas of study was George Armstrong Custer and The Battle Of The Little Bighorn.
I read two very good books on the subject. Actually I read quite a few but two stand out.
A Terrible Glory by James Donovan
And Custer and Crazy Horse by Stephen Ambrose.
Both of these authors paint a different picture of custard than what's the norm.
I don't remember if it was Donovan or Ambrose but one of them stated that Grant credited Custer with the victory at Appomattox Court House that ended the war.
It's a documented historical fact that Grant presented the table on which the articles of surrender were written to Elizabeth Custer as a gift and stated that her husband had more to do with ending the war than any general in the Union Army.
Both authors categorically state that the idea of Custer flagrantly disobeying Terry's orders and attacking the Indian village is a myth.
They also both stated the Custer's tactics were not uncommon for the time. If Custer had won it would not have been the first time that a US Calvary unit defeated a numerically Superior Indian Force by using Superior weapons.
They also both stated that a lot of the negative press regarding Custer was from Benteen and Reno blaming the dead guy for the defeat.
Donovan says that the idea that Custer was trying to win one great Victory so he could run for president was speculative at best. He pointed out that there's no evidence that Custer had any interest in running for President. There's not a single person that ever stepped forward and said George Custer told me that he was going to run for president in 1876. His wife who's certainly would have known never said it.
Donovan suggests that Custer was simply trying to win the battle so you can get promoted in a peacetime Army where promotions were coming really slow. The way he framed that argument it makes sense.
Last comment, I don't remember if it was Donovan or Ambrose or both but I think they both said that if Custer had won that battle you wouldn't know his name today.
Apparently Elizabeth bacon Custer spent the rest of her life until 1930 something when she died promoting the legend of George Armstrong Custer. If she hadn't done that he probably would have faded into history.
Last, last comment. Custer didn't have any known direct to send it but I met a couple of people in the army that were branches of the family and I don't know how to explain it but every single one of them that I met felt like they had something to live up to with that name.
Custer was an egotistical ass but have you ever met a general who wasn't?
I read two very good books on the subject. Actually I read quite a few but two stand out.
A Terrible Glory by James Donovan
And Custer and Crazy Horse by Stephen Ambrose.
Both of these authors paint a different picture of custard than what's the norm.
I don't remember if it was Donovan or Ambrose but one of them stated that Grant credited Custer with the victory at Appomattox Court House that ended the war.
It's a documented historical fact that Grant presented the table on which the articles of surrender were written to Elizabeth Custer as a gift and stated that her husband had more to do with ending the war than any general in the Union Army.
Both authors categorically state that the idea of Custer flagrantly disobeying Terry's orders and attacking the Indian village is a myth.
They also both stated the Custer's tactics were not uncommon for the time. If Custer had won it would not have been the first time that a US Calvary unit defeated a numerically Superior Indian Force by using Superior weapons.
They also both stated that a lot of the negative press regarding Custer was from Benteen and Reno blaming the dead guy for the defeat.
Donovan says that the idea that Custer was trying to win one great Victory so he could run for president was speculative at best. He pointed out that there's no evidence that Custer had any interest in running for President. There's not a single person that ever stepped forward and said George Custer told me that he was going to run for president in 1876. His wife who's certainly would have known never said it.
Donovan suggests that Custer was simply trying to win the battle so you can get promoted in a peacetime Army where promotions were coming really slow. The way he framed that argument it makes sense.
Last comment, I don't remember if it was Donovan or Ambrose or both but I think they both said that if Custer had won that battle you wouldn't know his name today.
Apparently Elizabeth bacon Custer spent the rest of her life until 1930 something when she died promoting the legend of George Armstrong Custer. If she hadn't done that he probably would have faded into history.
Last, last comment. Custer didn't have any known direct to send it but I met a couple of people in the army that were branches of the family and I don't know how to explain it but every single one of them that I met felt like they had something to live up to with that name.
Custer was an egotistical ass but have you ever met a general who wasn't?
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KillerFord1977
SAINT
Custer was a sign of the times.
European settlers battled the Indians from the original 13 colonies thru westward expansion.
Countless battles were fought well before Custer. Fact he got smoked makes it different.
Native Americans suffered from day one when European settlers came to the new continent. Custer was just a succession . Nothing more. Nothing less than previous settlers vs natives.
Bassbob
Emissary
I've read the Ambrose book several times. I can't vouch for the authenticity of either book, so I have no idea who's orders he followed or disobeyed. I can tell you that he disregarded his own Crow Scouts and divided his command and attacked against their advice because he was supremely confident that he was the apex predator of the plains. And by all accounts he was a braggard and a horse thief prior to his rise to glory as the "Boy General". There's no doubt a lot of blame shifting took place, Reno didn't live a charmed life afterwards, thanks to Custer's friends and wife making him the scapegoat for Custer's grievous miscalculations.
Custer was for years falsely credited with saying that with a 1000 men he could ride through the entire Sioux nation. It was actually Fetterman who said that. Both men got what they had coming.
Sld1959
Hellcat
I will stand by my opinion that there were no winners that day. Certainly not by the 7th Cavalry. And yes, the Indians won the battle, spectacularly, but lost the war. And they did lose, I have little doubt that it not only sped up an eventual subjugation, but it also intensified the punitive actions inflicted upon them by an embarrassed and outraged government and populace.
No, no one won, a proud, beautiful people lost practically everything in the aftermath. And the rest of the country lost another chance to prove they were not hypocrites in saying they believed all men were created equal. Nothing there is a win.
Just an opinion.
No, no one won, a proud, beautiful people lost practically everything in the aftermath. And the rest of the country lost another chance to prove they were not hypocrites in saying they believed all men were created equal. Nothing there is a win.
Just an opinion.
Inusuit
Elite
Fetterman is also a victim of false reporting. His alleged statement "Give me 80 men and I can ride through the Sioux nation" didn't show up until years after the fight as Carrington's wives attempted to shift the blame from him to Fetterman. I believe there is substantial evidence that it was Grummond's cavalry that violated Carrington's order to not cross Lodge Trail ridge. Grummond was known to be impetuous and narrowly escaped being killed a few days before the Fetterman fight when he charged into an Indian ambush. I think Grummond went over the ridge, got in a hot fight, and Fetterman with his infantry moved to support him.
I've been at the battle site and done some research, but the above is only my opinion.
Cedric
Master Class
Thanks for this info. I haven't read these books but other sources have said essentially the same thing. The "arrogance" on the part of Custer was based on Army intelligence estimating no more than a thousand braves, but it turned out to be about 5000. As you mentioned, his tactics were proven successful in previous engagements. He turned down a detachment of Gatling guns wanting speed and mobility which also, in his view was more important than firepower. The 7th Cavalry was not wiped out. Custer's immediate command was. Troops under Benteen and Reno made it out. BTW, something I haven't read about was how many braves died. Maybe someone can provide that info.
And last, I won't make apologies for the treatment of the Indians. When a civilization goes on the march some will suffer. This is true throughout history. The idea of the noble savage has been debunked in various sources for about three decades now, so this white Christian admits to being very imperfect, bit neither was the Amerindian.
Sld1959
Hellcat
When civilation goes on the march some will suffer.
Yep, heard those words a time or two in the past, didn't we fight a world war because of a country(s) on the march. One country lead by a little mustached maniac trying to destroy another " inferior race of people" ? Suppose it would have been ok if he succeeded also.
Might makes right eh? Have heard this retoric many times, even here in the states by guys running around in bed sheets burning crosses and lil pathetic groups of guys worshipping a little moustached maniac.
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Bassbob
Emissary
Custer was given reliable information by his scout Bloody Knife and others. He was told it was the largest encampment of Lakota they had ever seen and they advised him not to advance.
You weren’t involved so why would anyone ask you to apologize ? Nobody said Indians were perfect. And the term “Indian” as a collective is meaningless. The biggest downfall of the Indians was their inability to work as a collective. Even while white Christians were breaking treaties and invading their lands they continued to fight each other.
It wasn’t Lakota though that made treaties they never intended to honor. And they never set out to eliminate an entire race of people in the name of their god.
One thing I do find ironic though is the fact that the “ Sacred homeland” of the Lakota was Crow territory a decade earlier.
Bassbob
Emissary
I’m still going to take them where I can get them.
Sld1959
Hellcat
I can understand that, but like you so rightly pointed out to Cedric, you were not there.
Not your battle, not your win or loss.
Cedric
Master Class
Never said they were inferior, just were painted as something they were not. And no, might does not make right, just this has been the course of human history, just as we see taking place today in Eurasia, Africa, etc. This transcends religion of any stripe, not just white Christians.
Cedric
Master Class
I do agree that the downfall was the inability to work/fight as a collective and the continued inter-tribal fighting. And I do stand corrected on his scouts warning. However, I guess the question in Custer's mind was who to believe and this is where his arrogance comes in.
Sld1959
Hellcat
Uh huh.
The Night Rider
Professional
Didn't they both get what every human being on this planet has got coming?
The Night Rider
Professional
Okay, give your home, your land your property and everything you own to an American Indian who is historically from wherever you live go back to the old country.
The Night Rider
Professional
Way back in the early 90s I remember there was a TV show on Nickelodeon called Hey Dude.
There was an episode of the show in which a white kid and a native kid (who was actually portrayed by a Mexican if I remember right) were arguing about who gave the greater benefits to humanity as a whole.
And the "native" kid said that if it wasn't for the Indians the white guy wouldn't be wearing his cotton jeans earing corn on the cob or squash and whatever else he said. I remember watching the episode thinking electricity, cars, penicillin, sanitized water, not having half of your children die before they were 5 years old.... the list goes on.
I'm not accountable for what my ancestors did. I don't owe anybody reparations for something that happened to 100 years before I was born.
We are where we are and really the only thing we can do is move forward from here
There was an episode of the show in which a white kid and a native kid (who was actually portrayed by a Mexican if I remember right) were arguing about who gave the greater benefits to humanity as a whole.
And the "native" kid said that if it wasn't for the Indians the white guy wouldn't be wearing his cotton jeans earing corn on the cob or squash and whatever else he said. I remember watching the episode thinking electricity, cars, penicillin, sanitized water, not having half of your children die before they were 5 years old.... the list goes on.
I'm not accountable for what my ancestors did. I don't owe anybody reparations for something that happened to 100 years before I was born.
We are where we are and really the only thing we can do is move forward from here