Are You Carrying the Right Gun?

[TexasBEAST]

Nah, I don't think I really need to match the gun to the situation, like Gresham advised in the article. It's not that subjective and variable. I chose to carry for self-defense, so that's the situation, and I researched to identify the best, most effective caliber for that situation. 10mm was found to be the best by the FBI experts through rigid scientific testing, and I like and trust science. Their findings also jibed with my own personal "scratch & sniff" test, so that settled that. When I bought my first 10mm handgun, the Glock 20 was the only realistic option, as far as price and grip size, for me. Later, I added a G40 longslide upper for the possibility of woods use, but the actual practice of switching out the uppers hasn't proven to be that convenient or necessary. (Switching mags of preloaded ammo has, though.)

Then I learned that SA had 10mm's too, and I was thrilled. The XD had been on my short list when I first hand tested guns, but I would have had to have settled for a .45 then, which I simply would not do. But XDM-10s were another thing altogether. So I looked into them, and tried out an XDM-10-4.5 at a range, and decided I would add one to my rotation. But looking at the numbers, the XDM-10-5.25 longslide had an OAL that was barely more (0.3in) than the G20 with its 4.6in barrel, so I figured why not go for the big boy? Around that time, I learned that a few shops were also offering the XDM-10 in FDE brown as well, and I even found a seller that was charging a minimal premium for the new color, so I pulled the trigger on an XDM-10-5.25 FDE. And I love it.

I have 2 different 10mm's now, and I will add more in the future. But this is not a matter of necessity. This is just a matter of variety. I will only own and carry fullsize-grip fullsize-capacity 10mm pistols that I can still stuff down by britches. I will not settle for a lesser caliber, or less muzzle velocity from a compact barrel, or less control from a smaller grip. It's fullsize or bust. The Glock fulfilled the requirements just fine. The XDM was icing on the cake. But it doesn't taste much different from the Glock, because it really isn't. And I wouldn't want it to be. I don't need it to be.

 

[HansGruber]

Nah, I don't think I really need to match the gun to the situation, like Gresham advised in the article. It's not that subjective and variable. I chose to carry for self-defense, so that's the situation, and I researched to identify the best, most effective caliber for that situation. 10mm was found to be the best by the FBI experts through rigid scientific testing, and I like and trust science. Their findings also jibed with my own personal "scratch & sniff" test, so that settled that. When I bought my first 10mm handgun, the Glock 20 was the only realistic option, as far as price and grip size, for me. Later, I added a G40 longslide upper for the possibility of woods use, but the actual practice of switching out the uppers hasn't proven to be that convenient or necessary. (Switching mags of preloaded ammo has, though.)

Then I learned that SA had 10mm's too, and I was thrilled. The XD had been on my short list when I first hand tested guns, but I would have had to have settled for a .45 then, which I simply would not do. But XDM-10s were another thing altogether. So I looked into them, and tried out an XDM-10-4.5 at a range, and decided I would add one to my rotation. But looking at the numbers, the XDM-10-5.25 longslide had an OAL that was barely more (0.3in) than the G20 with its 4.6in barrel, so I figured why not go for the big boy? Around that time, I learned that a few shops were also offering the XDM-10 in FDE brown as well, and I even found a seller that was charging a minimal premium for the new color, so I pulled the trigger on an XDM-10-5.25 FDE. And I love it.

I have 2 different 10mm's now, and I will add more in the future. But this is not a matter of necessity. This is just a matter of variety. I will only own and carry fullsize-grip fullsize-capacity 10mm pistols that I can still stuff down by britches. I will not settle for a lesser caliber, or less muzzle velocity from a compact barrel, or less control from a smaller grip. It's fullsize or bust. The Glock fulfilled the requirements just fine. The XDM was icing on the cake. But it doesn't taste much different from the Glock, because it really isn't. And I wouldn't want it to be. I don't need it to be.

You do know the FBI stopped issuing 10mm and switched to .40 shortly after .40 came out, right? And that they never considered using full power loads, but a reduced power load?

Additionally, they switched to 9mm a number of years ago, after their experts found that it was “best”...

 

[TexasBEAST]

You do know the FBI stopped issuing 10mm and switched to .40 shortly after .40 came out, right? And that they never considered using full power loads, but a reduced power load?

Yes, I'm fully aware. In a typical display of federal government bureaucratic brilliance, the FBI sought out a more powerful, better performing cartridge than what they were using, learned that the 10mm might fit the bill, also learned that it was breaking Bren Tens and Colt Delta Elites, asked Smith & Wesson to build them a heavy duty gun that could handle hot 10mm like a boss and not break...and then rationalized a neutered 10mm load, concocted a weak load that didn't even exist on the market in order to have strict controls for scientific testing, and then found that their unprecedentedly weak load didn't run well in the gun they asked to be overbuilt.

And even then, even with their 950fps nerfed load, it still outperformed their 9mm and .45 950fps loads. Even with both hands tied behind its back, the 10 ruled.

But a weak load doesn't do well in a gun with a heavy slide and heavy springs. It jams left and right. Anyone with minimal semiauto experience knows this, but the FBI acted like newbs.

S&W worked with the FBI to try to retrofit the gun to run the weaksauce load, but it was doomed. It was a bad fit from the ground up.

And then S&W conveniently announced that they were looking into a .40cal cartridge that would fit into 9mm frame-sized guns, and they both jumped ship.

None of this was the 10mm's fault. I genuinely think it was just a mismatch of weak load and strong platform.

Additionally, they switched to 9mm a number of years ago, after their experts found that it was “best”...

It was not their scientists who declared modern 9mm to be "best". It was their beancounters and administrators. Back in the '80s, the FBI sought out the gun and cartridge that would give their agents the best terminal ballistic performance on target, which was a noble goal. But with the more recent caliber reversion, they made it clear that they were no longer interested in the best performance, but simply "sufficient" performance, on a budget. Thus, the agents' safety has been significantly compromised in the name of the dollar.

At any rate, I don't have to buy for an agency or for an office. I only have to buy for one man. And I want the best I can afford to initially buy and to shoot regularly. So 10mm it is.

 

[HansGruber]

Yes, I'm fully aware. In a typical display of federal government bureaucratic brilliance, the FBI sought out a more powerful, better performing cartridge than what they were using, learned that the 10mm might fit the bill, also learned that it was breaking Bren Tens and Colt Delta Elites, asked Smith & Wesson to build them a heavy duty gun that could handle hot 10mm like a boss and not break...and then rationalized a neutered 10mm load, concocted a weak load that didn't even exist on the market in order to have strict controls for scientific testing, and then found that their unprecedentedly weak load didn't run well in the gun they asked to be overbuilt.

And even then, even with their 950fps nerfed load, it still outperformed their 9mm and .45 950fps loads. Even with both hands tied behind its back, the 10 ruled.

But a weak load doesn't do well in a gun with a heavy slide and heavy springs. It jams left and right. Anyone with minimal semiauto experience knows this, but the FBI acted like newbs.

S&W worked with the FBI to try to retrofit the gun to run the weaksauce load, but it was doomed. It was a bad fit from the ground up.

And then S&W conveniently announced that they were looking into a .40cal cartridge that would fit into 9mm frame-sized guns, and they both jumped ship.

None of this was the 10mm's fault. I genuinely think it was just a mismatch of weak load and strong platform.


It was not their scientists who declared modern 9mm to be "best". It was their beancounters and administrators. Back in the '80s, the FBI sought out the gun and cartridge that would give their agents the best terminal ballistic performance on target, which was a noble goal. But with the more recent caliber reversion, they made it clear that they were no longer interested in the best performance, but simply "sufficient" performance, on a budget. Thus, the agents' safety has been significantly compromised in the name of the dollar.

At any rate, I don't have to buy for an agency or for an office. I only have to buy for one man. And I want the best I can afford to initially buy and to shoot regularly. So 10mm it is.

Interesting; my 1076 runs the FBI load just fine. There was no retrofitting, period. In fact, it's the hot loads that cause issues in 1076’s...

As far as performance? It had the benefit of using some of the latest bullet technology (AT THE TIME) in the testing...of course it performed better.

I’m glad you like your 10mm, but...don't change the facts to fit your opinions.

 

[TexasBEAST]

Interesting; my 1076 runs the FBI load just fine. There was no retrofitting, period. In fact, it's the hot loads that cause issues in 1076’s...

As far as performance? It had the benefit of using some of the latest bullet technology (AT THE TIME) in the testing...of course it performed better.

I’m glad you like your 10mm, but...don't change the facts to fit your opinions.

I'm not changing facts. So please don't accuse me of such. Thia comes directly from Bill Vanderpool, one of the main FBI special agents at the Firearms Training Unit where the 10mm testing took place:

This testing resulting in the FBI’s adoption of the 10mm round, downloaded to about 950 fps, using a Sierra 180-grain jacketed hollowpoint. The long round, however, required a very large frame pistol. Adopted was the Smith & Wesson Model 1076. [...]

The Smith & Wesson 1076 exhibited some problems from the start. Guns were returned to the factory for adjustment. To confuse the situation even more, some performed flawlessly throughout new agent training. Others continued to have problems.

One new agent enjoyed a perfectly performing pistol until the last qualification, just before his graduation, when his 1076 seriously jammed up. An entire new agent class lost confidence in the gun and requested a different make and model. But to be fair, the pressure to develop something good and fast created a lot of pressure on both Smith & Wesson as well as the FTU personnel tasked with the procurement. It was a steep learning curve for both.

Then an agent in the Miami office participated in a heavy arrest. When he arrived at the jail with the subject, he tried to unload his 1076 and found it jammed shut. After booking the prisoner, he went directly to the Bureau’s nearby range and tried to fire it without success. Nor could he unload the gun. A mallet had to be used to get the pistol open.

When word of this reached the Gun Vault at Quantico, instructors were given permission to leave any problem guns loaded and send them to Quantico. They didn’t have to wait long. Another handgun, this time in the Tampa Division, also jammed up. The special agent involved flew to Washington, DC with the gun on his hip (and another brand for backup) to deliver to the Gun Vault.

The 1076 was shortly dropped from FBI use due to reliability problems and the Bureau went back to the SIG P228 and P226, still using the subsonic 9mm loading. (<source>)

I'm glad you like your 1076.

But please don't deny that plenty other FBI agents didnt like theirs with the FBI Lite load. The FBI tells us directly that they refused to use the hot stuff, but instead used the weak stuff, and their guns were intermittently unreliable with it.

 

[HansGruber]

I'm not changing facts. So please don't accuse me of such. Thia comes directly from Bill Vanderpool, one of the main FBI special agents at the Firearms Training Unit where the 10mm testing took place:



I'm glad you like your 1076.

But please don't deny that plenty other FBI agents didnt like theirs with the FBI Lite load. The FBI tells us directly that they refused to use the hot stuff, but instead used the weak stuff, and their guns were intermittently unreliable with it.

Read that same article.

Sounds more like QC issues at S&W than an issue with the loading.

In fact, on a re-read,at no point does it say that reduced loads caused issues with the 1076 as you claim.

 

[TexasBEAST]

Read that same article.

Sounds more like QC issues at S&W than an issue with the loading.

In fact, on a re-read,at no point does it say that reduced loads caused issues with the 1076 as you claim.

We both know that 10mm was designed from the start to be a zippy round. As it went through R&D, it's intended muzzle velocity jumped from 1000 to 1200fps. This quickly earned the round an infamous reputation. And it is precisely why the FBI considered it in their testing and their search for a handgun caliber that was superior to what they were already using.

Then the article tells us that the heavy duty 1076 guns, loaded with light loads, jammed a lot. Full stop.

Now contrast that with your claim that it was hot loads that cause issues in 1076's.

Once S&W revealed the cheaper .40S&W cartridge and the fact that smaller, light guns could run it, of course the FBI administrators found it easy to blame the 1076 for the problems. Heaven forbid the FBI admit that it was their own mistake to stick light loads in a heavy duty gun that was built for heavy duty loads.

 

[HansGruber]

We both know that 10mm was designed from the start to be a zippy round. As it went through R&D, it's intended muzzle velocity jumped from 1000 to 1200fps. This quickly earned the round an infamous reputation. And it is precisely why the FBI considered it in their testing and their search for a handgun caliber that was superior to what they were already using.

Then the article tells us that the heavy duty 1076 guns, loaded with light loads, jammed a lot. Full stop.

Now contrast that with your claim that it was hot loads that cause issues in 1076's.

Once S&W revealed the cheaper .40S&W cartridge and the fact that smaller, light guns could run it, of course the FBI administrators found it easy to blame the 1076 for the problems. Heaven forbid the FBI admit that it was their own mistake to stick light loads in a heavy duty gun that was built for heavy duty loads.

You’re right; what would I know about what causes issues with a 1076? I only own one...how about you? Do you have one?

 

[TexasBEAST]

You’re right; what would I know about what causes issues with a 1076? I only own one...how about you? Do you have one?

No, but I have looked far beyond your sample set of one.

And I have also not made the error of falsely claiming that it was hot loads that doomed the FBI's 1076's.

I don't like single stack guns. I prefer to keep shooting more, and to reload less.

Cheers, McGruber.

 

[HansGruber]

No, but I have looked far beyond your sample set of one.

And I have also not made the error of falsely claiming that it was hot loads that doomed the FBI's 1076's.

I don't like single stack guns. I prefer to keep shooting more, and to reload less.

Cheers, McGruber.

So, I other words, you have zero hands on knowledge. Gotcha.


And, in reading that entire article...not once does the author even hint that it was mild loads that caused issues—care to give a quote with a link where he says that?

 

[TexasBEAST]

So, I other words, you have zero hands on knowledge. Gotcha.

We all use second-hand knowledge about all kinds of guns. Learning from others is a mark of intelligence, and not something to be derided, as you do here.

I know murder is wrong as well, even though I have no hands on experience there either. Must I kill you, first?

Of course not.

So the notion that one's own lack of hands on knowledge is somehow disqualifying is preposterous. As are you.

Yours is an appeal to special authority that is not representative of the full range of experiences with the 1076 and 10mm, out there. It is arrogance on your part to expect me to listen ONLY to you because you have ONE.

And, in reading that entire article...not once does the author even hint that it was mild loads that caused issues—care to give a quote with a link where he says that?

Well, he certainly never said it was hot loads that caused the issues for the 1076--which YOU said, here!

As I already quoted above, the FBI both chose a weak load, AND contracted for a big and heavy gun, and then they began jamming almost immediately. Not quoting it again.

When a light load fails to produce enough pressure to move the slide back with sufficient authority, the expended case might not eject fully, or it might turn awkwardly and stick against the inside of slide. Have a heavy duty mag immediately shove another round into that mess, and you've got a recipe for a traffic jam.

And that's just one possibility. You know there's all kinds of others.

10mm owners are often advised to upgrade their springs as they move up in loads. Many aftermarket magazines have weak springs that cannot keep up with the rate of recoil and return-into-battery of hot loads, so they fail to feed.

The point is, the load must be synced up with the spring rate and reciprocating mass of the platform. When they are out of balance, problems will sometimes arise.

Here's another quote for you, not from Vanderpool, but from another article on GunDigest:

The FBI then decided to continue testing, with a 180-grain Sierra JHP bullet to a muzzle velocity of 980 fps. This load reduced recoil enough for agents to tolerate it.

The FBI requested Federal ammunition to duplicate that reduced load, which became known as the “FBI-lite” round.

Other ammunition manufacturers followed the light loading, and some shooters found their 10mm pistols did not function properly with the reduced-power load. The light load also defeated the purpose of the 10mm, which was meant to offer better penetration and more power. (Red bold added; <Source>)

 

[jumpinjoe]

You’re right; what would I know about what causes issues with a 1076? I only own one...how about you? Do you have one?

Hans, I'm not personally familiar with the 1076 so I did just a quick search to see what I could find about it. Not many specifics that I found, but one thing caught my eye...... From a visual comparison it appears the 1076 is about the same size as my 659. Can you verify that... or not? In fact, about the only difference I could tell for certain is the safety/decocker on the 1076 is frame mounted right under and behind the slide lock whereas on the 659 it's still on the slide/both sides.

But the visuals sure do look a lot alike. Same apparent frame, same physical size, very similar grips. 'Course my 659 is 9mm and a double stack rather than the 10mm single of the 1076.

Lgth 7.44"
BBL 4"
Wgt 39.5oz

 

[HansGruber]

Hans, I'm not personally familiar with the 1076 so I did just a quick search to see what I could find about it. Not many specifics that I found, but one thing caught my eye...... From a visual comparison it appears the 1076 is about the same size as my 659. Can you verify that... or not? In fact, about the only difference I could tell for certain is the safety/decocker on the 1076 is frame mounted right under and behind the slide lock whereas on the 659 it's still on the slide/both sides.

But the visuals sure do look a lot alike. Same apparent frame, same physical size, very similar grips. 'Course my 659 is 9mm and a double stack rather than the 10mm single of the 1076.

Lgth 7.44"
BBL 4"
Wgt 39.5oz
View attachment 10954

It's a bit bigger; built on the .45 (645/4506) frame instead of the 9mm frame; single-stack, with no safety/decock on the slide. The decocker is Sig P-series style, just ahead of the left-side grip.

This is mine.

 

[jumpinjoe]

dang, looks like yours hasn't been used any more than mine. I've had it since early 80's IIRC, and probably not fired 2 full boxes through it. Somewhere, somehow it became a night stand bedtime buddy. Go figure, huh?

 

[HansGruber]

dang, looks like yours hasn't been used any more than mine. I've had it since early 80's IIRC, and probably not fired 2 full boxes through it. Somewhere, somehow it became a night stand bedtime buddy. Go figure, huh?

Mine's late 80’s (‘88, iirc).

I've shot it a bit, but it's not a carry gun.

 

[HansGruber]

We all use second-hand knowledge about all kinds of guns. Learning from others is a mark of intelligence, and not something to be derided, as you do here.

I know murder is wrong as well, even though I have no hands on experience there either. Must I kill you, first?

Of course not.

So the notion that one's own lack of hands on knowledge is somehow disqualifying is preposterous. As are you.

Yours is an appeal to special authority that is not representative of the full range of experiences with the 1076 and 10mm, out there. It is arrogance on your part to expect me to listen ONLY to you because you have ONE.


Well, he certainly never said it was hot loads that caused the issues for the 1076--which YOU said, here!

As I already quoted above, the FBI both chose a weak load, AND contracted for a big and heavy gun, and then they began jamming almost immediately. Not quoting it again.

When a light load fails to produce enough pressure to move the slide back with sufficient authority, the expended case might not eject fully, or it might turn awkwardly and stick against the inside of slide. Have a heavy duty mag immediately shove another round into that mess, and you've got a recipe for a traffic jam.

And that's just one possibility. You know there's all kinds of others.

10mm owners are often advised to upgrade their springs as they move up in loads. Many aftermarket magazines have weak springs that cannot keep up with the rate of recoil and return-into-battery of hot loads, so they fail to feed.

The point is, the load must be synced up with the spring rate and reciprocating mass of the platform. When they are out of balance, problems will sometimes arise.

Here's another quote for you, not from Vanderpool, but from another article on GunDigest:

Some shooters...exact words.

Hardly an indictment of the entire line, or loading.

Seems you want to make things fit your pet narrative...

 

[TexasBEAST]

Some shooters...exact words.

Hardly an indictment of the entire line, or loading.

Well, yeah, it was some shooters. Vanderpool said the same thing: some lightly loaded guns were fine, and some jammed. But it was enough "some" for them to abandon the whole thing.

Seems you want to make things fit your pet narrative...

Not at all. When I first converted to the the 10mm cult, I bought into the common misconception that the FBI dropped the 10mm because it was too powerful for their girly-girl and girly-man agents. That myth helped make me and a lot of 10mm fans feel full of ourselves and superior.

Remember how you, yourself, falsely claimed in this very thread that it was hot loads that tripped up the 1076? Yeah, nonsense like that.

But it was only after doing a lot of reading of sources that go beyond the surface and urban legends that I came to this conclusion. How could hot loads have been the reason the FBI turned its back on the 10, when they didn't even use hot loads? Whatever the truth is, it isn't because they were girly-men and we're manly-men. So personal ego has to be left out of it.

I am not fitting things to a pet narrative, but forming a narrative to fit the facts as they become available to me. That's the opposite of what you're accusing me of.

Also consider this contemporary 1990 NRA American Rifleman article:

Both pistols [1076 & 1006] have been subtly changed [from the 4506 & 4516] to accommodate the heavier recoil of the 10 mm Auto cartridge, and it is important to note that even though the 1076-FBI will be used largely with the reduced 10 mm load, it, just like the 1006, is designed with full-charge ammunition in mind. (Bold added; <Source>)

The mismatch of load to platform should be glaringly obvious. No pet narrative. Just the facts and common sense.

And then there is this:

In 1990 the Virginia State Police contracted with S&W for 2,200 Model 1026 pistols, and by July 1990 they had received the entire order. The Model 1026 was identical to the FBI's Model 1076 but with a 5-inch barrel instead of a 4.25 inch barrel. The Virginia State Police also experienced issues with the pistol and the reduced power load recommended by the FBI. In 1994, based on continuing problems with the 1026, the Virginia State Police traded them in for the SIG Sauer P228 pistol in 9mm. (Bold added; <Source>)

Seems you want to ignore whatever doesn't fit your pet narrative, whatever that may be.

 

[wmg1299]

On a lighter note, when asked, "Are you carrying the right gun?", the safest answer is, "I'll let you know as soon as I've tried them all."

 

[Bassbob]

On a lighter note, when asked, "Are you carrying the right gun?", the safest answer is, "I'll let you know as soon as I've tried them all."

The other correct answer is , “ Yes, several of them”. .

 

[SCfromNY]

I love these back and forth arguments The actual answer is just get an H&K in .40 and not be concerned about all this stuff. Or 9mm if you wish..