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Ayoob: Will Carrying a 10mm Hang You in Court?

While bears (various species) have been killed with "minor" calibers, using Ballistic gel (aka stiffer Jello) as a medium to gauge penetration on thick skinned, heavy-muscled & hard-boned/thick-skull large some-times aggressive animals is simplistic.

That's why manufacturers offer hard-cast/jacketed loads that penetrate deep into animals not made of Ballistic gel, and even hard-cast loads are offered on 9mm for those that live in areas where only black bears exist.

Those of us that go-walk-about in "real" wilderness areas in the Northern Rockies where "griz", and other dangerous critters occur, and those in AK where brown bears occur know what's more appropriate to carry & load-out with than those whose only experience with "our" conditions is by watching Marlin Perkins "Wild Kingdom" re-runs while stretched out on an industrial-strength Lazy Boy recliner.
 
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Fred613 said:
The defense could have
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....and theres the answer. He had a lousey, overworked, likely poorly trained and poorly qualified lawyer, who couldnt get a plea bargin AND a prosecutor who sacrificed him for a victory. The cartridge was just what stuck when they tossed the case against the wall, it could have been a 357 or 22 magnum. Then they would have gone after the "magnum" as the death ray. If he had used the blade on a Boy Scout Knife, they would have scolded him for not using the can opener as being less lethal
 
PieterCoetzee said:
....and theres the answer. He had a lousey, overworked, likely poorly trained and poorly qualified lawyer, who couldnt get a plea bargin AND a prosecutor who sacrificed him for a victory. The cartridge was just what stuck when they tossed the case against the wall, it could have been a 357 or 22 magnum. Then they would have gone after the "magnum" as the death ray. If he had used the blade on a Boy Scout Knife, they would have scolded him for not using the can opener as being less lethal
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The main issue is thwre were severe lapses between his statement and witness statements who heard the shots.

And if I am not mistaken (it’s been a while since I read this one and they can blend together) some of the wounds from the deceased was played as could have been defensive.
 
ECS686 said:
I know several national ffirwarms trainers that have oretty relevent ballistic stuff they do be fine with a 147 gr FP 9mm as it punches through two blocks (32”) of gel, and with the proliferation of high cap 9mm thwre has been more bears killed (handgun wise) with 9mm tjan 10mm

But the 10mm church likes to argue. And what I find funnier is the ones arguing the most about “10mm and bear defense” have a 40 plus inch waistline so I doubt they are hiking in wilderness areas much!
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Well…if you feel more comfortable with a 9, by all means carry it. If penetration is everything, then a 7.62x25 is dandy. SP for two legs, FMJ for four.
 
3L120 said:
Well…if you feel more comfortable with a 9, by all means carry it. If penetration is everything, then a 7.62x25 is dandy. SP for two legs, FMJ for four.
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Well since gbis is addressing 10mm and handgun stuff HSt would be irrelevant.

Some people have a 2500 Diesel truck but live in a subdivision with no secondary property no livestock or trailer or camper to tow too…..but like an 10mm or 44 or 453 anyone can carry or drive what they want.

I lived in Montana around and went into bear country frequently all Before the 9mm became popular and most of us ran 357 L frame revolvers with some sort of 158-180 grain flavor along with our 270-3006 or 7mm rem mag

And now I would have no problem with any of my 9mm with 147 FP in it

That said Alaska State Troopers travel to remote outposts staying overnights in cabins and such on trails all the time with only their measly 9mm Glock 17 (did it with Gkick 22’s and 357 mags before that) with no long gun and they seem to be just fine because like predators in a city avoidance is the thing but if that doesn’t work like Montana eye/orbital nose, mouth and neck/vertebrate is the quickest way to anchor and out down game like a bear and it don’t take a 10mm for that and if in the body the 147’s are getting the same penitrarion so the body. Is still gonna break bones it hits

Had the same discussion with Chuck Haggard and a retired USMC guy named Justin Dyal and Justin if you don’t know was the commanding officer of the USMC MARSOC school house which MARSOC has killed more bad guys than some strains of Syphilis and he does a LOT of hiking in the smoky mountains and the Rockies and he said he often time if running a Glocks 19 with 147’s

Someone wants a 10mm or a 44 or a 500 do whatever some people just get to worked up over bears They aren’t the big issue folks thjnk they are.
 
bc22wm said:
Can you site stats or is this just opinion? Not arguing that a properly loaded 9mm won't do the job.
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Chuck Haggard and Justin Dyal as well as several other industry leading trainers and Haggard does a lot of ballistic stuff habe out iyt info on it. I touched on the just post above this

If someone likes and wants a 10mm so whatever I haven’t met too many rounds I don’t like, I might not buy them or reload them but if that’s your jam cool.

Just at the end of the day a 10mm pokes holes in thing like any other service cartridge with similar bullets
 
ECS686 said:
Chuck Haggard and Justin Dyal as well as several other industry leading trainers and Haggard does a lot of ballistic stuff habe out iyt info on it. I touched on the just post above this

If someone likes and wants a 10mm so whatever I haven’t met too many rounds I don’t like, I might not buy them or reload them but if that’s your jam cool.

Just at the end of the day a 10mm pokes holes in thing like any other service cartridge with similar bullets
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Sorry didn't make myself clear. Not talking ballistics, asking about "thwre has been more bears killed (handgun wise) with 9mm tjan 10mm". Stats please.
 
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