testtest

Concealed Carry: Point Shooting vs Aimed Fire

I will.

They both have their place. Point shooting is a very good skill to have in the toolbox...you may not be able to bring that gun up to eye level for a “flash sight picture” because you're too close, for just one example...and prattling on about “situational awareness” just means you haven't thought about it enough, because you still think you'll be dictating the ground rules when everything goes tango uniform.

I like the fact that I can draw, speed rock from waist level, and put a round in a 3x5 card at distances out to five yards consistently, usually at least half a second to a second faster than going to an extended, flash sight picture.
 
HansGruber said:
I will.

They both have their place. Point shooting is a very good skill to have in the toolbox...you may not be able to bring that gun up to eye level for a “flash sight picture” because you're too close, for just one example...and prattling on about “situational awareness” just means you haven't thought about it enough, because you still think you'll be dictating the ground rules when everything goes tango uniform.

I like the fact that I can draw, speed rock from waist level, and put a round in a 3x5 card at distances out to five yards consistently, usually at least half a second to a second faster than going to an extended, flash sight picture.
Click to expand...

Obviously, I really loved your post.

I have not been an instructor since the early 1970s and have no interest in doing so now except to help a few new shooters I like or family. I understand there are many pursuing their dreams as instructors and competitive shooters and I really try and stay away from disagreeing with them - except maybe in private and only if they ask.

I once had the good fortune to hang out once in a while with some guys that were the real thing who had been in numerous gun fights while on the job. In fairness to today's crop of experts, both society and the rules of engagement have changed and they really haven't (for the most part) been experienced in real life and death encounters. As a result, most of what they have learned is from tactical games and ranges and those activities favor certain tactics that are perhaps appropriate for uniformed personnel or SWAT activities, but not of great use to lone good guys/gals that are abruptly challenged.

The penning and release of Unrepentant Sinner and the subsequent backlash against Charles Askins also taught many a real lesson. I knew him and he paid mightily for that book. I also knew Skeeter Skelton who did not miss the message so his writings were more entertaining and lighthearted than his experiences would dictate. Askins, Jordan, and others were not about to cross Skelton, but that side of him did not show up in his writings. That lesson has also kept people who have real experience from talking about their experiences very much including a few of the more current generation who could teach a great deal about close quarters survival.

Thus we are left with a whole generation of trainers and writers who have never been shot or shot anyone as part of a serious social situation. Some of the great ones like Jim Cirillo for example, did end up instructing at places like FLETC. Cirillo was a big proponent of point shooting but would also insist people needed to learn when to point shoot and when to use the sights and be equally good at both.

I have my own opinions based on my own experiences but I will only say I admire some trainers and writers more than others.
 
ChanceMcCall said:
Obviously, I really loved your post.

I have not been an instructor since the early 1970s and have no interest in doing so now except to help a few new shooters I like or family. I understand there are many pursuing their dreams as instructors and competitive shooters and I really try and stay away from disagreeing with them - except maybe in private and only if they ask.

I once had the good fortune to hang out once in a while with some guys that were the real thing who had been in numerous gun fights while on the job. In fairness to today's crop of experts, both society and the rules of engagement have changed and they really haven't (for the most part) been experienced in real life and death encounters. As a result, most of what they have learned is from tactical games and ranges and those activities favor certain tactics that are perhaps appropriate for uniformed personnel or SWAT activities, but not of great use to lone good guys/gals that are abruptly challenged.

The penning and release of Unrepentant Sinner and the subsequent backlash against Charles Askins also taught many a real lesson. I knew him and he paid mightily for that book. I also knew Skeeter Skelton who did not miss the message so his writings were more entertaining and lighthearted than his experiences would dictate. Askins, Jordan, and others were not about to cross Skelton, but that side of him did not show up in his writings. That lesson has also kept people who have real experience from talking about their experiences very much including a few of the more current generation who could teach a great deal about close quarters survival.

Thus we are left with a whole generation of trainers and writers who have never been shot or shot anyone as part of a serious social situation. Some of the great ones like Jim Cirillo for example, did end up instructing at places like FLETC. Cirillo was a big proponent of point shooting but would also insist people needed to learn when to point shoot and when to use the sights and be equally good at both.

I have my own opinions based on my own experiences but I will only say I admire some trainers and writers more than others.
Click to expand...

I've always thought gunfighters—actual GUNFIGHTERS—like Fairbairn or Fitzgerald to have very pertinent insights...but most people see when they were active, automatically dismiss them.

Big mistake.
 
Point shooting/instinctive shooting is something I do often for fun and as a drill. I do it for fun with my 6 shooter and train with my other firearms. I also shoot a recurve which is instinctive shooting. It is something that I feel all who are serious about carrying should practice. You get in close contact or in a fight and are able to get your attacker off the you can draw and shoot without having to aim.
 
HansGruber said:
I will.

They both have their place. Point shooting is a very good skill to have in the toolbox...you may not be able to bring that gun up to eye level for a “flash sight picture” because you're too close, for just one example...and prattling on about “situational awareness” just means you haven't thought about it enough, because you still think you'll be dictating the ground rules when everything goes tango uniform.

I like the fact that I can draw, speed rock from waist level, and put a round in a 3x5 card at distances out to five yards consistently, usually at least half a second to a second faster than going to an extended, flash sight picture.
Click to expand...
Gospel
I draw practice shooting from 5” clearance above my holster with one hand often. I can hit a small target at 7 yards now. I have said before, you may not get a chance for a full arm draw. Better know technique to shoot at somethimg 2.5 feet away and another technique for something 25 yards away
 
KillerFord1977 said:
Gospel
I draw practice shooting from 5” clearance above my holster with one hand often. I can hit a small target at 7 yards now. I have said before, you may not get a chance for a full arm draw. Better know technique to shoot at somethimg 2.5 feet away and another technique for something 25 yards away
Click to expand...

I believe both are equally important...and practice both regularly.
 
Years ago, I’d watch law enforcement at a range walk up to a target. Get fave to face with it, then suddenly back up, draw and hip shoot 3 rounds real quick as if suddenly attacked by that target.
 
KillerFord1977 said:
Years ago, I’d watch law enforcement at a range walk up to a target. Get fave to face with it, then suddenly back up, draw and hip shoot 3 rounds real quick as if suddenly attacked by that target.
Click to expand...

I do a similar drill—start literally with my nose on the target, strike the face with my left hand as I retreat and draw, and fire a short burst (2-4 rounds) to center mass.
 
I'll refrain from opining about the author.

Larry Vickers on point shooting:


SAS point shooting at end of video:


Rob Leatham on point shooting:


US Army point shooting, combat training:


I agree with Vickers. He is consistent with law enforcement handgun training. Point shooting should become instinctive out to 15'. Point shooting is very easy to master. Keep in mind that a gunfight means at bad guy wants a good guy dead, reduced to evidence, and autopsied the following morning. At distance of 90+% of gunfights, point shooting might keep a good guy vertical.
 
I have never practiced point shooting, but back when I used to hunt with a recurve bow, I shot instinctively like BangBang said. I could shoot in total darkness as long as there was enough light for me to discern the target. I may need to practice point shooting with a handgun to see how far I can miss! :)
 
somorris said:
I have never practiced point shooting, but back when I used to hunt with a recurve bow, I shot instinctively like BangBang said. I could shoot in total darkness as long as there was enough light for me to discern the target. I may need to practice point shooting with a handgun to see how far I can miss! :)
Click to expand...
That’s fun, still shoot recurve today, for fun.
 
HansGruber said:
I believe both are equally important...and practice both regularly.
Click to expand...
Bassbob said:
This is absolutely the correct answer.
Click to expand...
I practice point shooting out to 5 yrds fairly regularly. I can double tap a silhouette from different draw heights with no issues which works for me. Hans I also practice a close to target draw and fire. I have been trying to find a comfortable (feels safe) action starting with my back to the target. I imagine my most likely defensive engagement would probably involve some aspect of point shooting since I feel it would be sub 5 yrds.
 
southtex said:
I practice point shooting out to 5 yrds fairly regularly. I can double tap a silhouette from different draw heights with no issues which works for me. Hans I also practice a close to target draw and fire. I have been trying to find a comfortable (feels safe) action starting with my back to the target. I imagine my most likely defensive engagement would probably involve some aspect of point shooting since I feel it would be sub 5 yrds.
Click to expand...

It’s almost a guarantee it will be sub 5 yards. Probably closer to 10’ depending on the level of situational awareness. Unless you’re LEO the odds of anything longer are slim.
 
Point shooting has it's place IMO especially shooting with one hand. Back when I shot in competition I had bad knees and one stage had the targets standing on the ground. So to avoid kneeling I squatted and one handed fired from the hip and scored good hits on all 3 targets. Four Alphas and two Charlies. Not sure I could do it all the time but it worked for reasonably close targets.

Having met Rob Leatham at an open house besides taking his advise from his experience he was one of the nicest and most approachable guys I ever met.
 
SCfromNY said:
Point shooting has it's place IMO especially shooting with one hand. Back when I shot in competition I had bad knees and one stage had the targets standing on the ground. So to avoid kneeling I squatted and one handed fired from the hip and scored good hits on all 3 targets. Four Alphas and two Charlies. Not sure I could do it all the time but it worked for reasonably close targets.

Having met Rob Leatham at an open house besides taking his advise from his experience he was one of the nicest and most approachable guys I ever met.
Click to expand...

That’s neat you got to meet him. He can shoot. He has some very good videos on YouTube.
 
Always remember Rule Two of gunfighting: If Rule One (Don't get in a gunfight) isn't an option, do not get shot. Professional survivors are taught that if precise sight alignment is required, a bad guy might be at a distance that would facilitate tactical retreat. In other words, if a good guy were able to run like heck out of a bad guy's sight picture, that would be preferred to engaging. If hightailing it to a county line isn't an option, run for safety of a barrier. A barrier, AKA: cover, prevents penetration of a bad guy's rounds.

Good guys must remember that while they're aligning sights, a bad guy will be putting rounds on them. The idea of any putting rounds of me ain't comforting.

Rule 3 is completely acceptable: It's better to be a live witness than a dead hero.

I'd be far more concerned about a bad guy's accuracy than mine. I do not want to get shot. I'd rather continue paying taxes than get shot. Trout already have the edge on me. Those darn fish want me to take rounds. I ain't about to indulge 'em.

It's a wise idea to remember that there are too darn many bad guys who are US and foreign military trained killers. Engaging a military trained killer would not be one's most productive idea.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top