Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled “F-105 Thunderchief: The Mighty Thud” and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/f-105-thunderchief/.
F-105 Thunderchief: The Mighty Thud
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Bloodknight
Master Class
They made good targets in Nam.Read the story on how we sent up a bunch of F4s looking like 105s and kicked the crap out of the Migs
Talyn
SAINT
A few points.
1) The F-105 competed against the North American F-107A for USAF's requirement for an all-weather attack aircraft.
2) In many aspects the F-107 had superior performance, but the F-105 was selected.
F-107
www.airplanes-online.com
3) While the F-105 had an internal bomb bay, as a requirement to carry a nuclear bomb, during the Vietnam War, it was not utilized. Instead it was either locked shut, and/or had a 390 gallon fuel tank installed inside with a center-line hard point installed to carry ordnance externally.
4) The F-105 had several performance issues that weren't resolved until the development of the "D" model.
1) The F-105 competed against the North American F-107A for USAF's requirement for an all-weather attack aircraft.
2) In many aspects the F-107 had superior performance, but the F-105 was selected.
F-107
USAF F-107A Ultra Sabre
3) While the F-105 had an internal bomb bay, as a requirement to carry a nuclear bomb, during the Vietnam War, it was not utilized. Instead it was either locked shut, and/or had a 390 gallon fuel tank installed inside with a center-line hard point installed to carry ordnance externally.
4) The F-105 had several performance issues that weren't resolved until the development of the "D" model.
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Snake45
Professional
Operation Bolo, 1967. That's a legendary USAF operation. The full and complete story is told in Robin Olds' book Fighter Pilot. Highly recommended.
I was surprised to learn that the 105 actually had a positive kill ratio over MiG-17 in Vietnam. Not so the MiG-21, though. Most 105s were knocked down by SAMs and AAA.
For the definitive story on 105 ops in SEA, read Jack Broughton's Thud Ridge and Going Downtown. Absolutely fabulous reading.
Snake45
Professional
Neither aircraft should have ever received an "F" designation, as they were not "fighters," they were, as you note, "all-weather attack aircraft." But the USAF was out of the A-for-Attack bidness as of 1947; their A-26 was redesignated B-26 as a "light bomber." (The USN was still in the A bidness at the time, with the North American A-5 Vigilante.)
Consider this: In SEA, the missions the 105s flew were directly comparable with the 8AF's B-17/B-24 missions of WWII: Similar distance (to Hanoi and other industrial targets in the North), similar targets, and even greater air defense dangers. The Thud drivers truly had, as a famous painting was titled, "Big Brass Ones."
BobT
Master Class
When I was in training to be a Titan II silo crew member in Wichita Falls, TX, They flew us up to Wichita, KS to tour a silo. At that time, MyConnell AFB was home to several Thud squadrons and a KC-135 detachment.
As we entered the pattern on downwind, traffic included the Thuds and some Flying club Cessna 150. I was watching out the window and I could see several 150s on final and a pair of 105's turning base. We landed and I see a 150 on a taxiway just off the runway but something did not look right. I did a double take when I realized I could see the instructor and student sitting in their seats THROUGH THE BACK OF THE FUSELAGE!. Turned out that he was tardy exiting the active runway and one of the Thuds clipped his tail cone knocking it clean off at the fuselage rivet line.
Back then it was widely rumored that Republic used only cast iron or concrete to build them.
As we entered the pattern on downwind, traffic included the Thuds and some Flying club Cessna 150. I was watching out the window and I could see several 150s on final and a pair of 105's turning base. We landed and I see a 150 on a taxiway just off the runway but something did not look right. I did a double take when I realized I could see the instructor and student sitting in their seats THROUGH THE BACK OF THE FUSELAGE!. Turned out that he was tardy exiting the active runway and one of the Thuds clipped his tail cone knocking it clean off at the fuselage rivet line.
Back then it was widely rumored that Republic used only cast iron or concrete to build them.
Snake45
Professional
A Fighter airplane is designed, built, and deployed primarily to fight other aircraft of some kind in some way. You can hang and haul bombs on one, of course, in which case it becomes a "fighter-bomber" (or, as the Germans called it, a "jabo"), but it's still designed to fight other aircraft, either offensively or defensively.
The F-105 was designed to haul ass at low altitude and fling a nuke at Soviet targets in Europe. Unspoken was that this was pretty much a one-way ride.
The F-4 Phantom was originally built as a Fleet Defense Interceptor for the Navy--a true fighter in every sense of the word, primarily armed with AIM-7 Sparrow missiles. It was a happy coincidence that it did so well hauling all sorts of ordnance.
Snake45
Professional
I have a problem with one statement in the article:
The 105 could carry 16 750-pound bombs on its five hardpoints, but this was NOT "a typical load." In fact, the only photos I've ever seen of a Thud so loaded was on a test/training range in the US. And such a load was definitely NOT used to attack "bridges and port facilities in North Vietnam." The Thuds were based in Thailand, and attacks on Route Pack 6 (Hanoi, Haiphong and the neighborhood) would require external fuel tanks to be carried on one (centerline) or two (wing inboard) hardpoints. The 750-pound M117s would be typically be carried on MERs or TERs--an MER on centerline with two 370-gal fuel tank on the wing inboards, OR a 600-gallon fuel tank on the centerline and a pair of TERs on the wing inboards.
I have in my possession a Fairchild/Republic factory desk model of a 105D with a very unusual/weird loadout unlike anything I've ever seen in real life. I suspect the model was intended to show what the 105 could carry, not what it typically did.
The 105 could carry 16 750-pound bombs on its five hardpoints, but this was NOT "a typical load." In fact, the only photos I've ever seen of a Thud so loaded was on a test/training range in the US. And such a load was definitely NOT used to attack "bridges and port facilities in North Vietnam." The Thuds were based in Thailand, and attacks on Route Pack 6 (Hanoi, Haiphong and the neighborhood) would require external fuel tanks to be carried on one (centerline) or two (wing inboard) hardpoints. The 750-pound M117s would be typically be carried on MERs or TERs--an MER on centerline with two 370-gal fuel tank on the wing inboards, OR a 600-gallon fuel tank on the centerline and a pair of TERs on the wing inboards.
I have in my possession a Fairchild/Republic factory desk model of a 105D with a very unusual/weird loadout unlike anything I've ever seen in real life. I suspect the model was intended to show what the 105 could carry, not what it typically did.
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USMC6094
Custom
And we have a tactical aircraft handicapped by politicians and pressed into the role of a strategic bomber.
I've been a fan of the Thud since before I was a teenager.
You also have to remember that it, the A4, A6, F111, and others came along when a guided bomb was the occasional Bullpup, and it's "guidance" was the pilot of the bird that dropped it.
And remember that until we started hauling the mail up North, there had never been the type of air defense network that had to be dealt with, there was limited ECM, and no Wild Weasel type suppression.
Performance has to be judged in relation to the operating environment, those Thud drivers, along with the Intruder/Phantom/ Vigilante crews, Skyhawk drivers, and the rest were getting the data that gave us the air defense technology we have today.
Their b@[[$ clanked when they walked...
I've been a fan of the Thud since before I was a teenager.
You also have to remember that it, the A4, A6, F111, and others came along when a guided bomb was the occasional Bullpup, and it's "guidance" was the pilot of the bird that dropped it.
And remember that until we started hauling the mail up North, there had never been the type of air defense network that had to be dealt with, there was limited ECM, and no Wild Weasel type suppression.
Performance has to be judged in relation to the operating environment, those Thud drivers, along with the Intruder/Phantom/ Vigilante crews, Skyhawk drivers, and the rest were getting the data that gave us the air defense technology we have today.
Their b@[[$ clanked when they walked...
KillerFord1977
SAINT
Yeah, eject into the engine intake. That looks safe…A few points.
1) The F-105 competed against the North American F-107A for USAF's requirement for an all-weather attack aircraft.
2) In many aspects the F-107 had superior performance, but the F-105 was selected.
F-107
View attachment 46534View attachment 46537
USAF F-107A Ultra Sabre
3) While the F-105 had an internal bomb bay, as a requirement to carry a nuclear bomb, during the Vietnam War, it was not utilized. Instead it was either locked shut, and/or had a 390 gallon fuel tank installed inside with a center-line hard point installed to carry ordnance externally.
4) The F-105 had several performance issues that weren't resolved until the development of the "D" model.
Certain items dont succeed for a reason.
Snake45
Professional
That's why this Keith Ferris painting (I've seen the real thing) is called Big Brass Ones.
Martin Garrett
Alpha
The nickname came from silly Indian Chief Thunderthud on television: The Howdy Doody Show in the early 1950s.
I did a hitch in the Air Force ‘63-‘67, was in aircraft maintenance (instrument man), and worked on almost everything. My last duty station was Nellis AFB a couple of miles outside Las Vegas (and now basically a suburb in Vegas!). This was where 105 pilots were trained. F-4 and F-100 training was there also. I spent many hours working on them (reinstalling the instrument panel and working in the hell hole - a maintenance “access” hatch behind and below the cockpit were a b****h !). The instructor pilots were all Nam vets - and some of them had patches that said “100 missions North Viet Nam” with the fighter designation they had flown those missions in (F105, F4 or F100). The 105 guys had major bragging rights. The 104 was used in North Vietnam because it could deliver ordinance with pinpoint accuracy, but the approach was alway very low level - and the commies placed their targets next to/
Temples, hospitals, schools, etc.). That’s why so many were shot down.
One of the 105 IPs (instructors) was one of those, but he also told me that during the Cuban missile crisis in ‘62, the Air Force had tasked 105 squadrons with the mission of actually striking the missile sites, and had built wooden mockups of those sites in the mountains east of the base, oriented just like the real ones in Cuba. This IP said that they trained day and night for weeks to approach, strike and get away from them, and that the knockout mission would have only been about 30 minutes on station.
After my enlistment was up, I joined the Army to be a helicopter pilot, and flew in Nam with the First Cav.
Interesting times.
Temples, hospitals, schools, etc.). That’s why so many were shot down.
One of the 105 IPs (instructors) was one of those, but he also told me that during the Cuban missile crisis in ‘62, the Air Force had tasked 105 squadrons with the mission of actually striking the missile sites, and had built wooden mockups of those sites in the mountains east of the base, oriented just like the real ones in Cuba. This IP said that they trained day and night for weeks to approach, strike and get away from them, and that the knockout mission would have only been about 30 minutes on station.
After my enlistment was up, I joined the Army to be a helicopter pilot, and flew in Nam with the First Cav.
Interesting times.
Welcome home.
Talyn
SAINT
The F-107 ejection system was designed for that not to happen.Yeah, eject into the engine intake. That looks safe…
Certain items dont succeed for a reason.
Certain items are decided for political reasons.
Snake45
Professional
North American Aviation, based in California, had several other Big $$$ Contracts going on at the time, IIRC, and Republic Aviation, based in Farmingdale, Long Island, NY, did not. Make of any of this what you will.
Talyn
SAINT
The cancellation of the F-107 and F-108 programs in the late 1950s, as well as the cancellation of the Navaho intercontinental cruise missile program, was a blow to North American from which it never fully recovered.North American Aviation, based in California, had several other Big $$$ Contracts going on at the time, IIRC, and Republic Aviation, based in Farmingdale, Long Island, NY, did not. Make of any of this what you will.
NA had some space program work as a sub-contractor. NA meager with Rockwell soon forming North American Rockwell.
NA ceased to exist as an independent company in 1967.
Republic - After the F-105 Republic struggled and was eventually taken over by Fairchild, which also folded after the A-10 program.
The final years
In December 1957, Republic developed a helicopter division, building the French Aérospatiale Alouette II helicopter under license, with marginal sales success.In an effort to keep the company going, Republic proposed converting a wartime-developed four-engine reconnaissance aircraft (the XF-12 Rainbow) into a transport aircraft. The aircraft would be very fast for a prop plane, but interest from airlines was not sufficient to continue development of the aircraft and the project was cancelled.
Republic Aviation made one last attempt to survive by returning to military contracts. In 1960, Republic Aviation acquired a minority interest in the Dutch aircraft company Fokker, and attempted to market a Fokker-designed attack plane (Fokker/Republic D-24 Alliance variable sweep wing VTOL) to the Air Force, but the Air Force showed little interest in the foreign design and no contracts were offered.
In the early 1960s, the aerospace company Fairchild, owned by Sherman Fairchild, began purchasing Republic's stock and finally acquired Republic Aviation in July 1965. In September, Republic became the Republic Aviation Division of Fairchild Hiller and ceased to exist as an independent company.
Republic's naming system was carried forward by Fairchild Hiller with the A-10 Thunderbolt II, which first flew in May 1972.
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Martin Garrett
Alpha
ALWAYS fun to read Doc Dabbs, no matter what he is writing about!