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Fools mistakenly shooting innocents will backlash on us

HayesGreener

HayesGreener

Hellcat
I have read several stories recently of armed people shooting under mistaken circumstances. The most recent I read was a resident shooting at a delivery person who went to the wrong address. I am all for constitutional carry, but as a long term instructor, I am appalled at the misconceptions or twisted logic many have of when they can use a gun. I wish everyone would get some training on the law, but with constitutional carry that isn't going to happen. As these incidents accumulate, there will be a backlash. The most I can do is ask you knowledgeable folks to encourage new gun owners to get some training. And please emphasize, just because you can does not mean you should.
 
it's not only what you speak of, regarding the innocents, but when gang members shoot it up as well.

this is what John and Joan Q. Public see, read and hear about, guns, in all sorts of shootings.

also too, the unsurmountable media coverages all across the country.

certainly you as well as many others here my age, maybe older, recall a time when there was only like 3 news networks, and news from around the country only was reported on when there was enough time for the 6 PM news, which meant, hardly any national news.

24/7/365 news organizations, bloggers, tik-tok, twitter, facebook, and other social media as well, all report on shootings.
 
All these accidental shootings ( at least 2 of which were LEO ) seem to have happened at someone's home. Which has nothing to do with Constitutional Carry.

Doesn't detract from your point, but I felt I needed to point that out.

Here's the thing. Training classes for CCW are not training classes at all. They do usually detail the laws as far as what is and isn't justifiable use of force. I just don't see too many people feeling the need to pay $100 to get the information they could receive from a cursory Google search.

People really need to get some actual training. However I am most definitely opposed to government mandated training. It would be nice if these classes were taught in high school. Or at a minimum if LE agencies would offer them free of charge on a voluntary basis.

The media plays these incidents up to the hilt, trying to force an agenda. The reality is they happen very rarely. The majority of shootings outside of suicides are perpetrated by actual criminals, not confused homeowners or law abiding citizens.
 
I think a big problem is a gross misunderstanding about “stand your ground”.

I think too many people take it as a “I don’t need to deescalate/withdraw/etc; if I “feel” threatened, I can light ‘em up!”…and that’s not the way it works.

In fact, even without SYG, I think there’s a lot of folks who think they’re justified to use deadly force based not on an actual threat, but on their feelings.

Personally, I think SYG laws are a bad idea; lethal force should be the last option, not the first (although sometimes, all other options are immediately discarded, depending on the situation), and SYG tends to make a lot of people think that it CAN be the first, every time.
 
HansGruber said:
I think a big problem is a gross misunderstanding about “stand your ground”.

I think too many people take it as a “I don’t need to deescalate/withdraw/etc; if I “feel” threatened, I can light ‘em up!”…and that’s not the way it works.

In fact, even without SYG, I think there’s a lot of folks who think they’re justified to use deadly force based not on an actual threat, but on their feelings.

Personally, I think SYG laws are a bad idea; lethal force should be the last option, not the first (although sometimes, all other options are immediately discarded, depending on the situation), and SYG tends to make a lot of people think that it CAN be the first, every time.
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I don't think SYG is the problem. I think the definition of "Threat" or the lack of clarification of that definition is the problem. Armed guy in close proximity heading your way = threat. Pretty simple really.
 
HansGruber said:
I think a big problem is a gross misunderstanding about “stand your ground”.

I think too many people take it as a “I don’t need to deescalate/withdraw/etc; if I “feel” threatened, I can light ‘em up!”…and that’s not the way it works.

In fact, even without SYG, I think there’s a lot of folks who think they’re justified to use deadly force based not on an actual threat, but on their feelings.

Personally, I think SYG laws are a bad idea; lethal force should be the last option, not the first (although sometimes, all other options are immediately discarded, depending on the situation), and SYG tends to make a lot of people think that it CAN be the first, every time.
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Stand Your Ground laws keep overzealous prosecutors and LEO's in check.
 
There do seem to be more reported shootings in the news, but I suspect we (along with everyone else) are not getting the whole story. For example, shooting at a car just for turning in your driveway makes no sense at all, even for someone who has had a few too many. These incidents are being used to promote an agenda. It will likely hurt gun owners. I don’t think stand your ground laws make any difference in what we are seeing.
 
Let’s also talk about having a child and parents of said child being shot for chasing a run away basketball into someone’s yard.

People have completely lost their minds.

Unfortunately my take is that some people’s idea of constitutional carry is they believe that the constitution will protect them from shooting people.
 
I don’t take issue with stand your ground laws but in a lot of these cases the lawyers know it’s the only provision under the law they can argue to defend their client. So in some cases the laws get used to attempt to defend someone who wasn’t really acting consistent with the law. It’s just the only possible way to defend the alleged shooter. Therefore, some of these can make stand your ground laws look bad and the news jumps all over it. They don’t always do a great job of following up and detailing if the alleged shooter was convicted or not.

I mean I just had someone drop off an entire instacart on my doorstep and had to explain to them they went to the wrong address as myself was on the SW street and not NW street they were supposed to go too. I never once thought about shooting anyone.
 
Bassbob said:
All these accidental shootings ( at least 2 of which were LEO ) seem to have happened at someone's home. Which has nothing to do with Constitutional Carry.

Doesn't detract from your point, but I felt I needed to point that out.

Here's the thing. Training classes for CCW are not training classes at all. They do usually detail the laws as far as what is and isn't justifiable use of force. I just don't see too many people feeling the need to pay $100 to get the information they could receive from a cursory Google search.

People really need to get some actual training. However I am most definitely opposed to government mandated training. It would be nice if these classes were taught in high school. Or at a minimum if LE agencies would offer them free of charge on a voluntary basis.

The media plays these incidents up to the hilt, trying to force an agenda. The reality is they happen very rarely. The majority of shootings outside of suicides are perpetrated by actual criminals, not confused homeowners or law abiding citizens.
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Wouldnt these classes being taught in HS be govt mandated training ?
 
All of the above are good points, even if some stray a bit off on to side topics (media coverage, etc)…

I like to ‘distill’ things down to their basics. HayesG’s basic message - assuming I’m understanding it correctly - is that experienced gun owners & ‘carriers’ can help protect our rights by pointing newbies towards [legitimate] training. I fully concur…
***
My side comments:
- I took the CCW class twice. The first one didn’t seem quite right (I can’t recall specifics off the top of my head) and the second class was an older guy (former schoolteacher!) who had a methodical style and also seemed to know how to ‘read’ his student group. But he too had his own angle & emphasis on certain things, just like the first.
I passed on several instructors’ classes as i saw the tatoos, tactical logos on ballcaps & T-shirts, and looked around their shops. Most of these were youngish guys and ex-military or claiming to be. I got the impression that they could have just as easily been in the hoodlum side of the aisle given even a minor change somewhere in their past. Then again, I’m old, and look at things with a jaundiced eye now 😉.

- I have the oddball feeling that too much is made of the “feared for my life” angle, although I can’t say why I’ve got that notion. Maybe it used to be THE criteria that had to be met?? Point is, there are other imperative conditions and I wonder if those trip people up in their decision making.

- A lot of the cases in the news are anomalies (for lack of a better term). The recent one about a basketball rolling into that elderly guys yard come to mind. I haven’t read up on it, but surely it’s a one-off situation (did it even involve CC ??) but they ALL get lumped together in the lib mind and in the media.
***

I’ve said it before - there’s an unintended consequence to be considered with all the new (fad?) gun owners coming on board. More gun carrying will inevitably lead to more, ah, ‘messy situations’.

I’m sorry for the long post. Just rambling on a Sunday morning.
But HayesGs concern is surely valid.
 
TidalWave said:
All of the above are good points, even if some stray a bit off on to side topics (media coverage, etc)…

I like to ‘distill’ things down to their basics. HayesG’s basic message - assuming I’m understanding it correctly - is that experienced gun owners & ‘carriers’ can help protect our rights by pointing newbies towards [legitimate] training. I fully concur…
***
My side comments:
- I took the CCW class twice. The first one didn’t seem quite right (I can’t recall specifics off the top of my head) and the second class was an older guy (former schoolteacher!) who had a methodical style and also seemed to know how to ‘read’ his student group. But he too had his own angle & emphasis on certain things, just like the first.
I passed on several instructors’ classes as i saw the tatoos, tactical logos on ballcaps & T-shirts, and looked around their shops. Most of these were youngish guys and ex-military or claiming to be. I got the impression that they could have just as easily been in the hoodlum side of the aisle given even a minor change somewhere in their past. Then again, I’m old, and look at things with a jaundiced eye now 😉.

- I have the oddball feeling that too much is made of the “feared for my life” angle, although I can’t say why I’ve got that notion. Maybe it used to be THE criteria that had to be met?? Point is, there are other imperative conditions and I wonder if those trip people up in their decision making.

- A lot of the cases in the news are anomalies (for lack of a better term). The recent one about a basketball rolling into that elderly guys yard come to mind. I haven’t read up on it, but surely it’s a one-off situation (did it even involve CC ??) but they ALL get lumped together in the lib mind and in the media.
***

I’ve said it before - there’s an unintended consequence to be considered with all the new (fad?) gun owners coming on board. More gun carrying will inevitably lead to more, ah, ‘messy situations’.

I’m sorry for the long post. Just rambling on a Sunday morning.
But HayesGs concern is surely valid.
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By the way, I didn’t mean to state outright that new gun owners/CCWs are automatically less safe. I know some lifelong gun people I won’t shoot with, who in recent years started carrying. Haven’t seen any stats about age, experience or CCW longevity either.
 
KillerFord1977 said:
Wouldnt these classes being taught in HS be govt mandated training ?
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Not if it is an elective. An example would be Driver's Ed. Students don't need it to graduate and the state allows a student to take classes from a private instructor. Requiring training in order to get a CCP would be considered a mandate, I think. Besides, in blue states, the libs would never allow taxpayer money to be used to train kids in gun safety, but I could imagine a mandatory class on the evils of firearms in general.
 
The media regularly misrepresents Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine laws which may give idiots with guns the wrong idea about when they can shoot someone. Not when trespassers are leaving your property. Not when when someone mistakenly rings your doorbell. Not when you approach the wrong car in a parking lot.
 
Terrible incidents the past few weeks. I do find the discussions interesting when the uninvolved parties give their viewpoint but, I wonder if the viewpoint would be the same if it was their child or family member. I read where the Gov of Tennessee is backing down from his staunch 2A support because someone close to his wife was a recent victim. To me there are two problems
1. People that shouldn't have guns,have guns
2. John Wick wannabe's crawling all over social media and believing the asinine trolls and horrible information that can be found in Google Land
Just my own random thoughts today.
 
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Old_Me said:
it's not only what you speak of, regarding the innocents, but when gang members shoot it up as well.

this is what John and Joan Q. Public see, read and hear about, guns, in all sorts of shootings.

also too, the unsurmountable media coverages all across the country.

certainly you as well as many others here my age, maybe older, recall a time when there was only like 3 news networks, and news from around the country only was reported on when there was enough time for the 6 PM news, which meant, hardly any national news.

24/7/365 news organizations, bloggers, tik-tok, twitter, facebook, and other social media as well, all report on shootings.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately they don't just report on shootings they editorialize on them.
 
Inusuit said:
The media regularly misrepresents Stand Your Ground and Castle Doctrine laws which may give idiots with guns the wrong idea about when they can shoot someone. Not when trespassers are leaving your property. Not when when someone mistakenly rings your doorbell. Not when you approach the wrong car in a parking lot.
Click to expand...
Not the Media's fault, it's the uninformed (nice word) individual that pulls the gun and shoots. Individual accountability is what it's called.
 
I think there is a lot more going on here than just a "misunderstanding" of SYG, CC, etc. Just turn on any news station, local or national, and watch the level of violence that goes on on a daily basis. Whether it is a shooting, carjacking, rape, beatings, looting, rioting, it all instills a sense of fear and/or apprehension about anybody coming up to you, your car, your house that you don't know. Remember the ring camera in Vegas catching that hoodrat trying to jack and shoot an old man in his own yard? Luckily for the old man, the gun jammed and the rat ran away. Probably had one of those scary "ghost guns" they are braying about. People are not safe in their own neighborhood, yard, home, car anymore. There have been several robberies where the criminals literally kicked in the door of a house to get inside, and gunfire was promptly returned.

I have a Nextdoor account, and on a daily basis, someone is posting a video from their Ring camera about some shady man or woman sneaking around their house, going up to their door and knocking on it to see if anyone is home, stealing stuff out of their yard or off their porch. One camera caught some young guy in his 20s trying to sleep on a person's front porch to sleep off their booze. The homeowner went out and chased them off, unarmed. People are getting carjacked in their own driveways. One woman shooed a dog off her front lawn, and the young woman who owned the dog came up, rang her doorbell, and was trying to draw her out for a confrontation. The young woman did not have her dog on a leash, so the dog was just running loose. The young woman's boyfriend had just pulled up with his friends, and he got out, rang the woman's doorbell, and was trying to confront her about it. Called her a "fat btch" and walked away.

It is not so much a "John Wayne" attitude about carrying and owning a gun. It is actual, justifiable fear. Yes, there should be training, or a video someone has to watch given by law enforcement of that state/city/town on what is and isn't justifiable stand your ground, castle doctrine, etc. You apply for your carry permit/gun permit, you should be required to sit through a video in a classroom setting given by law enforcement explaining the laws. Then you sign a legally binding form that you attended and passe the class. Done. This could be a taxpayer funded program. I have no problem paying an extra fee to ensure that people get the CORRECT information regarding this. As much as I hate to say "mandate" or "require" or to have to pay an extra fee or "tax", something has to be done.

Again, look at the news going on out there, and then understand that there are people who will look at everything that is going on and their first response is out of fear for life and limb. Self preservation. It has nothing to do with "looking for an excuse" to use their firearm. Then you have those that while fear is not guiding them, a fundamental misunderstanding of what "fear of bodily harm and death" actually mean. Then you have the "gunslingers" out there who have no business carrying. Then you have the ones like the 19 yr old kid leaving his birthday party, that mistakenly got into a car that he thought was his Uber at 1am. He got in the wrong car, and got shot dead for it by someone who should have known better. If I am out at 1 am, or anytime of day or night, my car/truck doors are LOCKED. Nobody is getting in without forcing their way in. 19 yr old kid, probably had a few drinks, wasn't aware enough to his situation, got in the wrong car, and paid with his life. The guy got off on "Stand Your Ground". I don't agree with it, but it happened. He is supposed to be a mature adult with at least a modicum of intelligence. What the heck is he doing riding with his doors unlocked? I understand that we may not have the whole story, as this was just in the news, but this could have been avoided had the "responsible adult" taken proper precautions.
Sorry for the rant.
 
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I'm Not A Lawyer. I'm Not Claiming To Be A Lawyer. I Just Read Alot.

A lot of people do not understand stand your ground laws. A lot of that is on the news media. George Zimmerman never once claimed "Stand Your Ground". He couldn't have claimed SYG because he was on the ground getting his head beat in and he couldn't have retreated. George Zimmerman claimed Strict Self Defense.

Colorado has Make My Day laws.

In order to claim make my day, the person has to have entered your home legally, they have to be in the commission of another felony and they have to present a threat to you (according to the Law "How ever slight")

If you claim MMD you're saying that all three of those elements have been met and the State has no grounds to charge you. The judge looks at your case before you ever go to the trial and if he finds those three elements have been met the case is dismissed.

If the Judge denies your MMD you're probably going to jail.

Different subject.

Too many people have been taught that all you have to do is say "I was in fear of my life." and you walk.

There's YouTube video by Masaad Ayoob where he talks about the difference between a "Base Fear" and a "Reasonable Fear".

One of the things he talks about is that it's getting to the point where so many instructors are telling people the first words out of your mouth had better be "I was in fear of my life." that the cops automatically discount that as soon as they hear it.

You can honestly be scared to death and have it still be an unreasonable fear.

I almost got myself in a bunch of trouble at work one night because someone threatened to beat my ass and I pulled out my OC.

The problem was there was a 9 foot fence between us.

The guy could have threatened me all night long but as long as he was on the other side of that fence and he wasn't displaying any kind of weapon capable of harming me through the fence any fear I had was completely unreasonable.

I got lucky, I apologized to the guy profusely and we talked it out and he didn't call the cops but if he had, I would have lost my job and quite possibly been charged with aggravated assault over that one.
 
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