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New developments in ammo?

shanneba

Master Class
Norma has MHP hollow points introduced in 2019.
Norma MHP Defensive-Handgun Ammo

Shooting Sports USA named it the ammo of the year in 2020

mhp-teaser.jpg

Norma has also recently introduced a non-expanding bullet design (similar to other companies)
Norma NXD™

nxd_pinpoints-medium.png

nxd-gel-medium.png
 
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The sintered, screwdriver tip bullets…

Research “temporary cavity” and understand why it isn’t a reliable wounding factor in defensive caliber handgun bullets.

Those “neato” pictures of gel with the big distortion (as pictured above) becomes a lot less impressive when you learn it doesn’t really do much damage in real tissue.
 

southtex

Custom
Founding Member
For my carry 9's I have pretty much been a Barnes guy although I have carried HST's with no complaints. Recently picked up Norma and found it to be easy shooting ammo and it also made the steel ding. I don't due any testing myself but rely on googleland info and all of the brands listed by Hans have long histories of established efficiency but I can't say the MHP wouldn't be efficient either. If we didn't adapt with change we would still be carrying the far more efficient bag phone and this forum wouldn't exist :D
 

papa

Professional
Founding Member
Here is a link to a gel test of MHP 9MM ( go to about 5:35 to miss all the BS )

It shows that the MHP does open up big in bare gel with short penetration. When the denim was used the MHP did not open and passed all the way through the 16" gel block.
 
This is one of the articles I read. For me I'm trying to keep an open mind. It does shoot pretty easy
I take anything coming out of the NRA journals (as well as a few other big publications…*cough*G&A*cough*) with a big grain of salt.

They've never seen a sponsor’s product they didn’t like.
 

southtex

Custom
Founding Member
I take anything coming out of the NRA journals (as well as a few other big publications…*cough*G&A*cough*) with a big grain of salt.

They've never seen a sponsor’s product they didn’t like.
I'm not going to argue with that statement since IMO all reviews have a slant. I'm just saying I am keeping an open mind and find them nice to shoot. Still carrying my Barnes Tac XP but might change at some point. My gunsmith speaks very highly of the Norma ammo in performance terms.
Another review I had read
 

stuartv

Operator
I found this FBI white paper on handgun ballistics to be very educational.


Disclaimer: It IS from 1989, so it is certainly possible that some of this info has changed. If anybody knows of newer refutation to any of this, I would LOVE to hear about it.


Particularly informative quotes from the paper:

"Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60- 70% of the time at best."

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration."

As a result of reading this, I became particularly interested in the Lehigh Defense (now owned by Wilson Combat) Xtreme Defender bullets. After doing the best studying I could on the subject, I am convinced that the technology in those bullets does work. That includes speaking directly to the head engineer at Lehigh Defense back before Wilson bought them.

It also includes talking to a retired test shooter from FN, also a USPSA Master, that I ran into at the range one day. It turned out that he uses a customized Glock 10mm pistol for hunting hogs. He said he had tried a variety of calibers and bullets and the 10mm with the Lehigh XD (or XP? I'm not sure) bullets were the only rounds he was consistently putting down hogs with in one shot. He said the hogs are often as big as 350#.

I asked him about wound channel and overpenetration.

He said that the wound channel from the XD bullets was as big or bigger than what he got from same-caliber conventional hollow point bullets. That is consistent with what the engineer from Lehigh told me, which was to ignore the Marketing department info on their website and that the actual truth of it is that their XD rounds produce a wound channel bigger than some conventional HP bullets (same caliber) and not quite as big as other conventional HP bullets (same caliber).

The hog hunter guy said that he had never had one of the XD bullets come out the far side of a hog he shot. He said that it appeared once they penetrated, the different densities of material in the hog body deflected the round and caused it to kind of bounce around inside, instead of going straight through and out the other side.


My conclusions: The FBI white paper makes it clear that penetration is the most important thing you need in a self-defense shooting (presuming your objective is IMMEDIATE incapacitation). The XD rounds are clearly going to penetrate better than any same-caliber hollow point that does its job (i.e. expands). If the HP does not expand, then it will penetrate at least somewhat like the XD round, but it will not create as big of a permanent wound cavity, as it is effectively the same as normal ball (FMJ) ammo when it fails to expand.

Since then, my EDC ammo is Underwood 38 Super rounds with the 90 gr XD bullets (spec'ed at 1640 fps). Backups are 9mm +P+ 90 gr XD (at 1550 fps), and 45 ACP rounds, also with XD bullets.

With modern bullets like the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender, I am no longer willing to stake my life on bullets that are as easily plugged (by clothing or whatever) as conventional hollow points are. I.e. not staking my life on bullets that are as unreliable as a hollow point. Bullets that only do their job 70% of the time is not good enough. Not anymore.
 
I found this FBI white paper on handgun ballistics to be very educational.


Disclaimer: It IS from 1989, so it is certainly possible that some of this info has changed. If anybody knows of newer refutation to any of this, I would LOVE to hear about it.


Particularly informative quotes from the paper:

"Handgun bullets expand in the human target only 60- 70% of the time at best."

"Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration."

As a result of reading this, I became particularly interested in the Lehigh Defense (now owned by Wilson Combat) Xtreme Defender bullets. After doing the best studying I could on the subject, I am convinced that the technology in those bullets does work. That includes speaking directly to the head engineer at Lehigh Defense back before Wilson bought them.

It also includes talking to a retired test shooter from FN, also a USPSA Master, that I ran into at the range one day. It turned out that he uses a customized Glock 10mm pistol for hunting hogs. He said he had tried a variety of calibers and bullets and the 10mm with the Lehigh XD (or XP? I'm not sure) bullets were the only rounds he was consistently putting down hogs with in one shot. He said the hogs are often as big as 350#.

I asked him about wound channel and overpenetration.

He said that the wound channel from the XD bullets was as big or bigger than what he got from same-caliber conventional hollow point bullets. That is consistent with what the engineer from Lehigh told me, which was to ignore the Marketing department info on their website and that the actual truth of it is that their XD rounds produce a wound channel bigger than some conventional HP bullets (same caliber) and not quite as big as other conventional HP bullets (same caliber).

The hog hunter guy said that he had never had one of the XD bullets come out the far side of a hog he shot. He said that it appeared once they penetrated, the different densities of material in the hog body deflected the round and caused it to kind of bounce around inside, instead of going straight through and out the other side.


My conclusions: The FBI white paper makes it clear that penetration is the most important thing you need in a self-defense shooting (presuming your objective is IMMEDIATE incapacitation). The XD rounds are clearly going to penetrate better than any same-caliber hollow point that does its job (i.e. expands). If the HP does not expand, then it will penetrate at least somewhat like the XD round, but it will not create as big of a permanent wound cavity, as it is effectively the same as normal ball (FMJ) ammo when it fails to expand.

Since then, my EDC ammo is Underwood 38 Super rounds with the 90 gr XD bullets (spec'ed at 1640 fps). Backups are 9mm +P+ 90 gr XD (at 1550 fps), and 45 ACP rounds, also with XD bullets.

With modern bullets like the Lehigh Defense Xtreme Defender, I am no longer willing to stake my life on bullets that are as easily plugged (by clothing or whatever) as conventional hollow points are. I.e. not staking my life on bullets that are as unreliable as a hollow point. Bullets that only do their job 70% of the time is not good enough. Not anymore.

I don’t buy the hoodoo.

If these were as good as advertised, major agencies would be using them…but they don’t.

I’ll stick with proven JHP’s instead of snake oil.
 

stuartv

Operator
I don’t buy the hoodoo.

If these were as good as advertised, major agencies would be using them…but they don’t.

I’ll stick with proven JHP’s instead of snake oil.

How quickly do you think major agencies react to new technology that comes on the market?!?

How long were non-LE using red dots on EDC pistols before major agencies starting using them?

The FBI says JHPs only work 60-70% of the time. Do you have info that says they are way better than that? (and I mean WAY better, because even 80 or 90% is not really that great) Or is working 60-70% of the time what you consider "proven"?
 
How quickly do you think major agencies react to new technology that comes on the market?!?

How long were non-LE using red dots on EDC pistols before major agencies starting using them?

The FBI says JHPs only work 60-70% of the time. Do you have info that says they are way better than that? (and I mean WAY better, because even 80 or 90% is not really that great) Or is working 60-70% of the time what you consider "proven"?
They worked 60-70% of the time 35 years ago; they work a lot more now…if you get a proven JHP (HST, et al).

Again; trust what you like. I don’t believe the hype.

And—top-tier guys can use what they like.

They all use JHP’s.
 
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