testtest

New developments in ammo?

Bassbob

SAINT
Personally I'm not altogether sure I trust anything written by the FBI.



Okay, it won't let me post the video, but if you go to the Guns and Gadgets YT channel there's a video- "LIARS!!! FBI Caught lying about good guys and gals stopping active 2A incidents." Crime Prevention Research Center caught them and is calling them out. Willfully manipulating stats. If they'll do that how can I trust anything they say?
 

stuartv

Operator
So that white paper you keep referencing…read it decades ago.

Also—do you know what circumstances lead to its being written, and what the FBI’s actions following it were?

If you know of something similar, but with newer info, I would love to read it. Seriously.

And, no, and no. I mean, I would guess the '86 Miami shooting had something to do with it being written. No idea what they did afterwards.
 

stuartv

Operator
Personally I'm not altogether sure I trust anything written by the FBI.



Okay, it won't let me post the video, but if you go to the Guns and Gadgets YT channel there's a video- "LIARS!!! FBI Caught lying about good guys and gals stopping active 2A incidents." Crime Prevention Research Center caught them and is calling them out. Willfully manipulating stats. If they'll do that how can I trust anything they say?

I totally agree.

But, I also would not judge the FBI of the 80s by how the FBI of today acts.
 

stuartv

Operator
Fair enough, but I also wouldn’t trust data about ammunition from the 80s to be relevant today.

I totally agree that stats on what percentage of HP bullets expand as intended are expected to be obsolete.
I am dubious that the entire rest of the paper is obsolete. Further, I am inclined to believe that the conclusion that penetration is the most critical factor (based on a presumption that you hit your target) is not obsolete, either. The basis for that conclusion is nothing to do with whether bullets expand as intended. The other factors involved in handgun wounding don't seem to have changed much by improvements in modern ammo (or have they?).
 

Bassbob

SAINT
I totally agree that stats on what percentage of HP bullets expand as intended are expected to be obsolete.
I am dubious that the entire rest of the paper is obsolete. Further, I am inclined to believe that the conclusion that penetration is the most critical factor (based on a presumption that you hit your target) is not obsolete, either. The basis for that conclusion is nothing to do with whether bullets expand as intended. The other factors involved in handgun wounding don't seem to have changed much by improvements in modern ammo (or have they?).
To a point, I agree. I’d say the difference between 6” of penetration and 12” penetration is moot in a real world scenario though.

But hey, I’m a guy who does his own testing out back with treated 4x4s so I wouldn’t put much stock in anything I say about ballistic testing. I can tell you that even with my poor shot placement you can cut a 4x4 in half at 15 yards with less than 8 rounds of 230 gr. HST.
 

stuartv

Operator
To a point, I agree. I’d say the difference between 6” of penetration and 12” penetration is moot in a real world scenario though.

But hey, I’m a guy who does his own testing out back with treated 4x4s so I wouldn’t put much stock in anything I say about ballistic testing. I can tell you that even with my poor shot placement you can cut a 4x4 in half at 15 yards with less than 8 rounds of 230 gr. HST.

Are you saying that the difference between 6 and 12" is moot to the FBI? Or just to non-LE/non-military?

Backing up to a higher level, I think the paper's information and conclusions all work together.

Sure, in most "civilian" self-defense situations, if you hit the bad guy anywhere, he's probably done fighting, one way or another. Either down, or running away.

But, I think that is not all that any of us are really trying to be prepared for. If we're strapping up for everyday concealed carry, I'd guess we all want to be prepared not JUST for the bad guy that is done fighting after a flesh wound in the arm. We also want to be prepared for the bad guy that keeps fighting until they are switched off in their central nervous system or they fully bleed out. Doesn't matter whether they are just "highly motivated" or high on drugs.

And for those guys, the point seems valid that you have to actually damage/destroy the brain or upper spine if you want immediate incapacitation. Or damage/destroy the heart for them to bleed out in 10-15 seconds. Modern ammo hasn't changed that.

And, once you accept that that is what your ammunition needs to be able to do, even in a worst-case scenario, then penetration of only 6" starts to sound questionable - to me, anyway. What if they are a very big guy, wearing heavy clothes? Will a round that only normally penetrates 6" be enough? What if you are hitting them somewhat on their right side, with a high center mass shot? That's a lot of clothes, ribs, and distance after that, to actually penetrate the heart.
 

Bassbob

SAINT
Are you saying that the difference between 6 and 12" is moot to the FBI? Or just to non-LE/non-military?

Backing up to a higher level, I think the paper's information and conclusions all work together.

Sure, in most "civilian" self-defense situations, if you hit the bad guy anywhere, he's probably done fighting, one way or another. Either down, or running away.

But, I think that is not all that any of us are really trying to be prepared for. If we're strapping up for everyday concealed carry, I'd guess we all want to be prepared not JUST for the bad guy that is done fighting after a flesh wound in the arm. We also want to be prepared for the bad guy that keeps fighting until they are switched off in their central nervous system or they fully bleed out. Doesn't matter whether they are just "highly motivated" or high on drugs.

And for those guys, the point seems valid that you have to actually damage/destroy the brain or upper spine if you want immediate incapacitation. Or damage/destroy the heart for them to bleed out in 10-15 seconds. Modern ammo hasn't changed that.

And, once you accept that that is what your ammunition needs to be able to do, even in a worst-case scenario, then penetration of only 6" starts to sound questionable - to me, anyway. What if they are a very big guy, wearing heavy clothes? Will a round that only normally penetrates 6" be enough? What if you are hitting them somewhat on their right side, with a high center mass shot? That's a lot of clothes, ribs, and distance after that, to actually penetrate the heart.
All I am saying is there is a point of diminishing returns. I'm not trying to kill the terminator. In short, I will stick with HST because I know it will do the job if I need it to.
 

Pitdogg2

Professional
Bullet technology has come a loooong way since the 80's-90's. A long way. There is just too many good bullets out there today. Still a good many can fail for some reason or another. You can like any number of bullets but if your gun doesn't shoot them well it really makes no difference how well you like that bullet. My 10mm compact well spit the Browning X-point bullets practically on top of each other. Other well known bullets I pray they even hit the target. Others I might get a 4" grouping. Just think I stumbled upon the Browning X-point and now my LGS has not been able to get anymore of them as hard as he tries for me to get several more boxes.

Good thing I saved 3boxes. Two of them are my daily carry.
 
If you know of something similar, but with newer info, I would love to read it. Seriously.

And, no, and no. I mean, I would guess the '86 Miami shooting had something to do with it being written. No idea what they did afterwards.

You are correct the Miami shootout lead to it…but you also need to understand full context. That report is in response mainly to ONE bullet; a 115gr 9mm Winchester Silvertip that performed exactly as designed…and stopped 1/2 inch short of Platt’s heart.

So instead of blaming the agents who royally botched a high-risk felony stop…they blamed a bullet that, as mentioned…performed exactly the way it was designed (robust expansion, shallow penetration).

And the FBI’s response was to go to a heavier caliber—the 10mm.
 

Honorman

Elite
Yes, the big question which is the best ammo. This debate is almost as talked about as to what kind of oil should you run-in a Harley Davidson M8. Well friends how would like some real world information about ammo. If you have read any of my post you will know that I served on a SWAT/Counter Terrorism team for 22 years. In that time we experienced plenty of shootings which prompted us to really look at various brands of ammo that had consistent positive results. We tested many brands in several types of media that we would encounter on deployments. Here is what we went with. Federal 230 grain HST plus P in 45 and Federal HST 147 grain in 9MM. In the fatalities that occurred, I tell you first hand that the 45 HST is a devastating round. How do I know this. Not only was I present during some of these encounters I also attended the autopsy's which revealed a great deal of information. The amount of damage to the human body from these particular rounds was substantial. Deep penetration and large wound cavities were noted. The bullets also retained their bullet weight. Some of these shootings were through vehicles and the round defeated glass and steel to get to the bad guy causing the fatality. The weapons used in these shootings were 1911's and the HK USP 45 at that time. As for the 9MM there is less data as most of the team members used the 45 rather than the 9mm. In cases where the 9mm was used it did perform quite well causing four fatalities and in other cases stopping the threat. Meaning, after being shot with the 9MM the bad guy was not able to fight any longer but was still alive. The 9MM round also had deep penetration and substantial wound cavity. The weapons used in the 9MM shootings were Glock models 17 and 34, HK VP9 and the Staccato P model. To this day these rounds are still in service with the team and I'am told that the 9MM has gained in popularity to the 45 round. I retired in 2018 and at that time the 45 was still king. I could go on for several pages about this topic but if you really want to get some fantastic information about ballistics look up Martin L. Fackler. Martin served in the military as an Officer and Surgeon. He is a wound ballistic expert and among other accomplishments was the founder of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the Letterman Army Institute of Research. When I transferred from the entry team to the sniper roll, I studied his research in depth because I really wanted to know as much about ballistics as I could for the sniper position. I hope this helps I know you have many choices and ammo has come a long way. I still carry this ammo both the 45 and 9MM to this day for EDC. I need to tell you that I do not get anything from Federal nor do I work for them. This is my own personal knowledge from what I experienced from participating in over 600 deployments/missions ranging from hostage rescue to direct action engagements. I'm sure there are other folks that can speak to their own experiences with similar results from a different brand ammo. I wrote this to provide you with real world information that is FACTUAL so that you can make your own decision. TRAIN,BE SMART, THINK TACTICS
 

Bassbob

SAINT
Yes, the big question which is the best ammo. This debate is almost as talked about as to what kind of oil should you run-in a Harley Davidson M8. Well friends how would like some real world information about ammo. If you have read any of my post you will know that I served on a SWAT/Counter Terrorism team for 22 years. In that time we experienced plenty of shootings which prompted us to really look at various brands of ammo that had consistent positive results. We tested many brands in several types of media that we would encounter on deployments. Here is what we went with. Federal 230 grain HST plus P in 45 and Federal HST 147 grain in 9MM. In the fatalities that occurred, I tell you first hand that the 45 HST is a devastating round. How do I know this. Not only was I present during some of these encounters I also attended the autopsy's which revealed a great deal of information. The amount of damage to the human body from these particular rounds was substantial. Deep penetration and large wound cavities were noted. The bullets also retained their bullet weight. Some of these shootings were through vehicles and the round defeated glass and steel to get to the bad guy causing the fatality. The weapons used in these shootings were 1911's and the HK USP 45 at that time. As for the 9MM there is less data as most of the team members used the 45 rather than the 9mm. In cases where the 9mm was used it did perform quite well causing four fatalities and in other cases stopping the threat. Meaning, after being shot with the 9MM the bad guy was not able to fight any longer but was still alive. The 9MM round also had deep penetration and substantial wound cavity. The weapons used in the 9MM shootings were Glock models 17 and 34, HK VP9 and the Staccato P model. To this day these rounds are still in service with the team and I'am told that the 9MM has gained in popularity to the 45 round. I retired in 2018 and at that time the 45 was still king. I could go on for several pages about this topic but if you really want to get some fantastic information about ballistics look up Martin L. Fackler. Martin served in the military as an Officer and Surgeon. He is a wound ballistic expert and among other accomplishments was the founder of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the Letterman Army Institute of Research. When I transferred from the entry team to the sniper roll, I studied his research in depth because I really wanted to know as much about ballistics as I could for the sniper position. I hope this helps I know you have many choices and ammo has come a long way. I still carry this ammo both the 45 and 9MM to this day for EDC. I need to tell you that I do not get anything from Federal nor do I work for them. This is my own personal knowledge from what I experienced from participating in over 600 deployments/missions ranging from hostage rescue to direct action engagements. I'm sure there are other folks that can speak to their own experiences with similar results from a different brand ammo. I wrote this to provide you with real world information that is FACTUAL so that you can make your own decision. TRAIN,BE SMART, THINK TACTICS
I use HST in everything, albeit 124 gr. and regular 230 gr. not +P. Although being a pragmatic sort of guy I am sure as hell willing to try some out.

Federal is my preferred shotgun shell ( Which is my true calling). Federal just makes good stuff.

By the way, I was turned on to HST by @HansGruber when I was testing out different JHPs for several .45s. One or two of them didn't get along with the Hornady CD so on his suggestion I bought a few boxes of HST. It runs great in all my .45s and 9MMs.
 

southtex

Custom
Founding Member
Yes, the big question which is the best ammo. This debate is almost as talked about as to what kind of oil should you run-in a Harley Davidson M8. Well friends how would like some real world information about ammo. If you have read any of my post you will know that I served on a SWAT/Counter Terrorism team for 22 years. In that time we experienced plenty of shootings which prompted us to really look at various brands of ammo that had consistent positive results. We tested many brands in several types of media that we would encounter on deployments. Here is what we went with. Federal 230 grain HST plus P in 45 and Federal HST 147 grain in 9MM. In the fatalities that occurred, I tell you first hand that the 45 HST is a devastating round. How do I know this. Not only was I present during some of these encounters I also attended the autopsy's which revealed a great deal of information. The amount of damage to the human body from these particular rounds was substantial. Deep penetration and large wound cavities were noted. The bullets also retained their bullet weight. Some of these shootings were through vehicles and the round defeated glass and steel to get to the bad guy causing the fatality. The weapons used in these shootings were 1911's and the HK USP 45 at that time. As for the 9MM there is less data as most of the team members used the 45 rather than the 9mm. In cases where the 9mm was used it did perform quite well causing four fatalities and in other cases stopping the threat. Meaning, after being shot with the 9MM the bad guy was not able to fight any longer but was still alive. The 9MM round also had deep penetration and substantial wound cavity. The weapons used in the 9MM shootings were Glock models 17 and 34, HK VP9 and the Staccato P model. To this day these rounds are still in service with the team and I'am told that the 9MM has gained in popularity to the 45 round. I retired in 2018 and at that time the 45 was still king. I could go on for several pages about this topic but if you really want to get some fantastic information about ballistics look up Martin L. Fackler. Martin served in the military as an Officer and Surgeon. He is a wound ballistic expert and among other accomplishments was the founder of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory for the Letterman Army Institute of Research. When I transferred from the entry team to the sniper roll, I studied his research in depth because I really wanted to know as much about ballistics as I could for the sniper position. I hope this helps I know you have many choices and ammo has come a long way. I still carry this ammo both the 45 and 9MM to this day for EDC. I need to tell you that I do not get anything from Federal nor do I work for them. This is my own personal knowledge from what I experienced from participating in over 600 deployments/missions ranging from hostage rescue to direct action engagements. I'm sure there are other folks that can speak to their own experiences with similar results from a different brand ammo. I wrote this to provide you with real world information that is FACTUAL so that you can make your own decision. TRAIN,BE SMART, THINK TACTICS
Thank you for supplying data gathered from experience.
 
HST is good stuff; I have it in several pistols, in various calibers.

I also really like Ranger-T, but it can be difficult to find…and often cost more than HST.

Good Dots are decent, as well…but can be a little more velocity sensitive.

Golden Sabers are, by far, some of the most accurate handgun bullets I’ve found; and I’m duty-length barrels, work great…but can sometimes suffer from jacket separation. Still, my Baer 1911 loves them.
 

Gramps

Alpha
I don’t buy the hoodoo.

If these were as good as advertised, major agencies would be using them…but they don’t.

I’ll stick with proven JHP’s instead of snake oil.
Underwood 90 grain Extreme defender +P is a great defense round, no hoo-doo about it! Never have to worry about opening up going through thick winter clothes. Especially in micro 9's...My 2 cents...
 
Underwood 90 grain Extreme defender +P is a great defense round, no hoo-doo about it! Never have to worry about opening up going through thick winter clothes. Especially in micro 9's...My 2 cents...
Much hoodoo. “Magic pressure waves” and other such BS.

You just buy it; I don’t.
 

Bassbob

SAINT
HST is good stuff; I have it in several pistols, in various calibers.

I also really like Ranger-T, but it can be difficult to find…and often cost more than HST.

Good Dots are decent, as well…but can be a little more velocity sensitive.

Golden Sabers are, by far, some of the most accurate handgun bullets I’ve found; and I’m duty-length barrels, work great…but can sometimes suffer from jacket separation. Still, my Baer 1911 loves them.
I have Golden Saber in my .40 Shield currently. Most everything else has HST.
 

southtex

Custom
Founding Member
Ammunition is constantly changing just look at the changes over time in 30 cal ammo, the advent of the 10mm and .40. The best ammo is the one that gives you reliability, recoil control/accuracy, performance, and confidence. It is very hard to look away from the collective data but all rounds were new at one time. I have started carrying the Norma MHP in my shield Plus, PPs M2, and Hellcat because there is a recoil control improvement and my larger 9mm have Barnes Tac XPD 115gr. Ranger T .45acp
 
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