Hi Mr.
@The Night Rider and Mr.
@HansGruber,
I appreciate your discussion. I understand and appreciate the points you raise. It is certainly a "make your choices and live with the consequences" scenario. "FAFO" as the kids like to say.
At this point in the conversation a few questions, somewhat rhetorical, somewhat related to case law, precedent, and the Constitution, come to mind. (Note: Everybody should know their state and local laws.)
Who has the right to insist upon his rights?
Who has the right to expect someone else give up their rights?
As Mr.
@WellArmed pointed out, if I am exercising my right and nobody knows, is there a downside?
Does the owner of the mom-and-pop shop I frequent realize that they could be putting me and themselves in a dangerous situation, a defensive disadvantage, by insisting I give up my right to keep and bear arms?
Do the owners have the right to take away my right to self-defense? Again, if I am concealed, nobody will know. And yes, if asked to leave I will certainly do so rather than violate any trespassing law.
You all may remember the Greenwood Park Mall shooting. Eli Dicken was legally carrying inside the mall, which was against the property owner's "Shopper Code of Conduct" which states "no weapons".
An armed man shot and killed the suspect in the Greenwood mall food court shooting.
www.indystar.com
A snippet from the above article, I quote:
--------------------------------------------------
...Dicken confronted the gunman within the first two minutes [Note: It was within 15
seconds] of the shooting. Dicken, who could legally carry the firearm under the permitless carry law, was armed with a pistol and fired several rounds, striking the gunman.
"Many more people would have died last night if not for the responsible armed citizen who took action very quickly within the first two minutes of the shooting," Ison said during a news conference on Tuesday.
When asked if shoppers could legally carry guns inside of Simon malls for any reason, a spokeswoman for Greenwood Park Mall referred to owner Simon Property Group's
Shopper Code of Conduct, which simply states "no weapons." She did not elaborate.
If customers ignore those policies or signs in some states, they are violating the law and can be charged with a crime. That's not the case in Indiana; not exactly.
Indiana gun laws:A look at what changed July 1
Greenwood Park Mall's no-weapons policy is akin to a "no shoes, no shirt, no service" sign you might see at a gas station, or a sign requiring masks in order to shop, said Guy Relford, an Indiana attorney and firearms instructor who is a prominent voice on the state's gun laws. Such signs are simply stating a business owner's policy.
Attorney: No-gun policy won't create legal issue for armed bystander
If a customer does not adhere to the policy, a business owner can demand that the customer leaves. And if the customer ignores that demand, the customer is now trespassing, which is an Indiana crime.
But if no one asked Dicken to leave, then he wasn't trespassing.
"So the fact that (Greenwood Park Mall) had a no-gun policy creates no legal issue whatsoever for this gentleman," Relford said, "and it certainly has no effect whatsoever on his ability to use force to defend himself or to defend the other people in the mall."
Jody Madeira, an Indiana University law professor, echoed Relford's sentiment, agreeing that Dicken may have violated Simon Mall’s policy prohibiting firearms at the mall, but “he wasn’t committing a crime unless they asked him to leave and he refused.”
“It’s disrespectful,” she said of violating the mall’s policy, “but it’s not unlawful.”
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I suppose for a private residence, if I was asked not to bring my firearm I would honor that request, to be respectful. But honestly, no one I know would make such a request of me. Those that might make that request do not know that I usually carry for self-protection, so they won't be asking either.
I used to take pictures of all the "no guns" signs on the doors of places I would frequent. Then I thought, "Well, this is stupid." What am I going to do? Make a scrapbook?
I try to practice common sense. I did not carry into the stadium when I saw the Browns lose to the Jets last summer. There were metal detectors there. I did not carry into the post office when I applied for my passport even though there were no metal detectors. I don't carry into my doctor's office. The reason why is private.
It seems we may agree on some things and disagree on others. I can live with that.
Thank you, gents.
Thank you for your indulgence,
BassCliff
