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Red Dot Sight Assistance

Sorry, but this thread instead of your 300bo one!
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SMSgtRod said:
Any suggestions on mounting distance? That's from eye to sight?
Click to expand...

The further an unmagnified RDS is from the eye, the easier it will be for you to track a moving target, as well as shoot at-speed.

Remember, proper use of an unmagnified RDS is *_TARGET FOCUS_* so the amount you are able to see "within" the optic window - what is the limiting factor with magnified optics - is actually completely irrelevant.

What do I mean?

Try this demo:

Make a "can" with your hand, using your thumb and your curled fingers. Imagine the interior of this circle to be the "window" of your sight. With BOTH EYES OPEN, center your "optic" on a target across the room, and FOCUS ON THAT TARGET. Notice how your natural binocular vision causes you to essentially "see through" your hand?

The same principle holds for the unmagnified RDS.

The farther forward you mount it, the more you'll "take in," visually, because your "field-of-view" isn't constrained in the way that the traditional magnified optics limits it - rather, it's literally the "field of view" available to the pair of Mk.1 Mod.0 eyeballs that God issued you. ;)

This is one of the reasons why you see early RDSs, dating to times prior to the monolithic AR upper, being equipped with "cantilever(ed)" mounts that pop them forward of the receiver-to-handguard junction. ( The other reason, of-course, is the use of some kind of optical device situated between you and the RDS, such as either a mounted night-vision or magnifier. )

Now, that said, this comes at a balance.

The farther away the optic, the smaller its window will seem to be. While we know from the above that this window is technically irrelevant as you should be using proper "target focus" (to the extent that the "dot" within the window will appear as though it is literally a laser projected onto the target itself), the problem comes in when you try to be more exacting with shot placement.

So, what does this mean?

Well, we've all heard that unmagnified RDSs are supposed to be "parallax free" - that you can shoot from anywhere in the window, as long as you see the dot on the target, right?

Well, kinda:


^ While this video's title references "handgun," Doc Spears addresses the use of the RDS in the long-gun context as well.

Shooting on any rifle, we want a consistent cheekweld because of what that cheekweld implies: that we've properly centered our eyeball behind the optical axis of the sights.

And while the RDS is "parallax free" and there's only that "dot," to achieve a really precise shot, you actually will want your eyeball to be aligned with that dot, as the dot is centered within the confines of the RDS's "window."

Here, with the dot pushed out far on the gun, it'll become harder for you to discern where the "center" of that window is - i.e. where to place that dot - when you want precise shots.

Don't believe me? Try zeroing the sight with it farther out on the rail and with it closer: this difference will become apparent quite readily. :)

What this all says is that there's not really one particularly agreed-upon place to place that dot on top of the rifle. Here, in the video below, the legendary Larry Vickers renders his recommendation, and the reasons behind why he does what he does:


Finally, to wrap-up, let's go back above and recall cantilever mounting. This, similar to mounting the optic forward, will of-course shift the center-of-mass of the gun more forward. Here, basic physics tells us that the farther the weight is from the fulcrum - i.e. your dominant hand, on the gun's main grip at fire-control - the heavier that weight will seem. Even though most modern unmagnified RDSs have weights that are measured in the ounces, its effect is still cumulative and undeniable: a gun with more forward weight will both be more physically taxing to handle as well as will feel "slower" on transitions.

So, don't get too carried away with how forward you push the optic forward on the gun. Mounting the optic to the handguard will make it susceptible to how much you as the shooter may be displacing that handguard with your support hand, bipod, or sling. And while a true monolithic platform or some of the really awesome handguards (Mega/Hodge Wedge Lock) can virtually eliminate this worry, remember that you'll still be shifting that weight forward.


-----

In this post, you can see where I'm running the dot on my HD gun. It's a bit more forward - as forward as I can get it, without running it either onto the receiver/handguard junction or forward onto the rail itself: https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-4#post-4251

On my daughter's gun, you can see that I've biased it bit more towards the receiver: https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-4#post-4362 . I also did this because of the wheel on the Scalarworks mount, as that ridge on the upper receiver allows for a good index for me, for when I move this optic between it and my bag (I typically take the optic with me to classes as a backup).

Contrast this with the setup on her S&W 15-22 (https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/photos-of-projects-your-working-on.408/#post-6388) where the light weight of this gun allowed us to mount that RDS as far forward as we can, without violating the receiver/handguard rule.

You'll see that this is again different with my backup gun for classes: https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/lets-see-your-ar-setups.258/page-5#post-4862 . In order to clear the magnifier/rear BUIS, I had to move this particular optic well forward. Luckily, I don't have to worry about mounting that far forward with this particular setup because the base gun is a LMT with a monolithic upper.
 
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TSiWRX said:
The further an unmagnified RDS is from the eye, the easier it will be for you to track a moving target, as well as shoot at-speed.

Remember, proper use of an unmagnified RDS is *_TARGET FOCUS_* so the amount you are able to see "within" the optic window - what is the limiting factor with magnified optics - is actually completely irrelevant.

What do I mean?

Try this demo:

Make a "can" with your hand, using your thumb and your curled fingers. Imagine the interior of this circle to be the "window" of your sight. With BOTH EYES OPEN, center your "optic" on a target across the room, and FOCUS ON THAT TARGET. Notice how your natural binocular vision causes you to essentially "see through" your hand?

The same principle holds for the unmagnified RDS.

The farther forward you mount it, the more you'll "take in," visually, because your "field-of-view" isn't constrained in the way that the traditional magnified optics limits it - rather, it's literally the "field of view" available to the pair of Mk.1 Mod.0 eyeballs that God issued you. ;)

This is one of the reasons why you see early RDSs, dating to times prior to the monolithic AR upper, being equipped with "cantilever(ed)" mounts that pop them forward of the receiver-to-handguard junction. ( The other reason, of-course, is the use of some kind of optical device situated between you and the RDS, such as either a mounted night-vision or magnifier. )

Now, that said, this comes at a balance.

The farther away the optic, the smaller its window will seem to be. While we know from the above that this window is technically irrelevant as you should be using proper "target focus" (to the extent that the "dot" within the window will appear as though it is literally a laser projected onto the target itself), the problem comes in when you try to be more exacting with shot placement.

So, what does this mean?

Well, we've all heard that unmagnified RDSs are supposed to be "parallax free" - that you can shoot from anywhere in the window, as long as you see the dot on the target, right?

Well, kinda:


^ While this video's title references "handgun," Doc Spears addresses the use of the RDS in the long-gun context as well.

Shooting on any rifle, we want a consistent cheekweld because of what that cheekweld implies: that we've properly centered our eyeball behind the optical axis of the sights.

And while the RDS is "parallax free" and there's only that "dot," to achieve a really precise shot, you actually will want your eyeball to be aligned with that dot, as the dot is centered within the confines of the RDS's "window."

Here, with the dot pushed out far on the gun, it'll become harder for you to discern where the "center" of that window is - i.e. where to place that dot - when you want precise shots.

Don't believe me? Try zeroing the sight with it farther out on the rail and with it closer: this difference will become apparent quite readily. :)

What this all says is that there's not really one particularly agreed-upon place to place that dot on top of the rifle. Here, in the video below, the legendary Larry Vickers renders his recommendation, and the reasons behind why he does what he does:


Finally, to wrap-up, let's go back above and recall cantilever mounting. This, similar to mounting the optic forward, will of-course shift the center-of-mass of the gun more forward. Here, basic physics tells us that the farther the weight is from the fulcrum - i.e. your dominant hand, on the gun's main grip at fire-control - the heavier that weight will seem. Even though most modern unmagnified RDSs have weights that are measured in the ounces, its effect is still cumulative and undeniable: a gun with more forward weight will both be more physically taxing to handle as well as will feel "slower" on transitions.

So, don't get too carried away with how forward you push the optic forward on the gun. Mounting the optic to the handguard will make it susceptible to how much you as the shooter may be displacing that handguard with your support hand, bipod, or sling. And while a true monolithic platform or some of the really awesome handguards (Mega/Hodge Wedge Lock) can virtually eliminate this worry, remember that you'll still be shifting that weight forward.
Click to expand...
That is a reason too not use a tube type, especially for 100 yards or closer for my experience!
 
Further rear the sight is moved the better it is to have the added weight to the rear, but It does obstruct your field of view. I'll get this AT3 mounted and see what fits me best.....
 
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