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Self Defense & Combat Arts

TSiWRX said:
100 ft. or 10 ft., there is so much truth in this. Great quote, @SMSgtRod . 👍

And towards this end:







The canonical Tueller Drill ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill ), as it stands, should *not* be interpreted to be more than it is.

The reality is much more along the lines of SMSgtRod's wise words above, and this ITS article digs into the reasons why - https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/...myth-why-the-21-foot-rule-isnt-a-rule-at-all/

Overall, we've seen time and again in CCTV footage (such as those analyzed by the Active Self Protection YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw) as well as by media-covered events of the good guys being triumphant in unarmed/improvised combatives against armed aggressors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_train_attack) that just because there is a gun involved, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person with the gun will triumph.

Distance and timing are real-world worries for the one with the gun just as much as for the one who is using OC spray, a contact weapon, or even bare-hands.

Towards this, in last summer's Practically Tactical "Diagnostic Handgun" class (see links at the end of this post - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/targets.346/page-2#post-5432), Joe Weyer, the chief instructor, recounted to us how he eventually reconciled his observations of the misses he documented in his study of police shootings. During his study, he noticed that the misses (regardless of whether the officer shooting ended up hitting or missing his/her intended target) typically were either low in front of the intended target or were high over. Joe's theory became that such misses occurred because the officer either got on the trigger too early from the draw (low hits in front of the target) or too late (high over, as the office then tried to shield him/herself in defense or were otherwise pushed back), and that both of these failures could be prevented by revising what we think of as "retention shooting." That, in-reality, retention shooting needs to be a default capability of our drawstroke, and that our capabilities for achieving center-mass hits from retention should extend at least to the parameters set forth in the canonical Tueller Drill, if not well beyond it.

^ I know, this is very, very abstract.

Let's try to make it more concrete. ;)

Look back at the canonical Tueller Drill, via this old police training video -



The last scenario depicted showed the canonical gap of 21 ft. from defender to aggressor.

In this case, the defender engages from full extension.

My question: would you really want to?

Joe had all of us - myself included, and I'm by far *not* the fastest guy out of the blocks - consistently engaging the high-center-chest scoring oval of an OPOTA Qual target (https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/opota-rqt2-ohio-opota-qualification-target-version-2.asp) from-retention, at upwards of 7 yards (with just a little more practice, I was assured from not only the instructional cadre but also fellow classmates who'd been through the class before, this could be stretched easily to 10 to 12 yards), coming out of inside-the-waistband concealment at 1 second or less. And no, this wasn't the old "speed-rock," it's a modern draw-stroke from a balanced fighting stance.

Run-fu. Empty-hands skills. A fast draw and the ability to engage from-retention. These are split-second choices that we will need to make, when things go down the way they do as SMSgtRod so eloquently put it.
Click to expand...

TSiWRX... If we ever need help with a college research paper here, I am looking you up. :) Thank you for your time, research and info.
 
TSiWRX said:
I think that while important, those who are seeking to improve their self-defense capabilities should first focus on improving their overall fitness.

I'm not saying this as someone on a high-horse...rather, I'm saying this as someone who needs to be on that train, myself 😅 - years (decades, really) of a rather sedentary lifestyle brought about by the perils of a white-collar career and the need to shuttle a school-aged child from one activity to another have led to a shocking BMI, a decrease in muscular strength, and also decrease in cardiovascular health and capacity - none of which are compatible with not only general-health/longevity, to say the least of self-defense.

Prioritizing, I would put both raw strength and cardiovascular capability above combatives training.

Both strength and cardiovascular health are of tremendous importance to aging well, and what's more, improving capabilities in these areas simply raises our baseline survivability. Pat McNamara calls our bodies the "combat chassis," and I think he's really on-point in this description. While none of us have a chassis as enduring as, say, the T-800:

View attachment 625

- a stronger, more fit body nevertheless makes us less vulnerable to injury overall and enables quicker recovery, regardless of the cause or circumstance.

To me, this difference is plainly seen in how my father-in-law is aging, versus my stepfather, versus my biological father.

My FIL has led the life of an academic/white-collar upper-middle-class individual all his life, from childhood to present-day, and he also was never very physically active. My stepfather, also a white-collar worker for most of his life, maintained a much more active lifestyle. My biological father, on the other hand, was active/sporting in his youth, and as an immigrant, worked hard physical labor during mid-life and continued in a blended blue/white-collar work environment - interspersing clerical work with the need to fill-in physical labor - throughout. Not unexpectedly, my FIL is the most frail of all, while my stepfather enjoy a very active retirement, and my father was able to recover very rapidly from major surgery last year.

Additionally, it is said from the likes of Dr. William Aprill ( https://aprillriskconsulting.com/ ) that the predators in our midst makes initial calculations of their potential targets by observing - perhaps even at the subconscious level - the physical capabilities of those prey: i.e. even something as simple as our way of walking and self-carriage. If this is true, then my FIL certainly presents as a much more appealing target versus either my stepfather or biological father.

Being able to simply last longer in the physical fight as well as being able to avoid/escape the fight ("Run-fu") are both also inexorably tied to simple physical fitness.

And that brings us, of-course, to fighting.

I think that for those who are looking at fighting for self-defense, the best medium to pursue would be integrated combatives specifically tailored towards the concealed carrier. Since many of us come to the legal concealed-carry at differing stages of life, integrated combatives teaches the skills and techniques to increase survivability specifically with defensive tools (be it OC, knife, gun, or even improvised weapons), along with some basic - but widely cross-applicable - empty-hand skills, including ground-fighting. Most of these integrated combatives instructors are very cognizant of the physical limitations that their clientele may present with (whether it be due to age or injury), and furthermore, will frame these skills in terms of the likely scenarios that their students will face in real-life.

That said, a deeper dive into the martial arts - particularly those which provide contact in the form of sparring or other pressure-cooked contexts - will serve to both harden the individual to take that first hit (Mike Tyson's amazingly incisive "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face" rewording of the age-old axiom) as well as vet techniques for real-world applicability. Furthermore, most martial arts will also help develop stamina, strength, and flexibility, which are all "chassis hardening" characteristics.

For me, I'd like to get back into Krav because of the simple physicality of the program.

Aside from that, I'd really like to get back into the integrated-combatives side of the equation: to take on a program at a regular schedule (i.e. both conditioning as well as skills). From a lifetime ago, I had a basic understanding of grappling and full-contact sparring through Combat Shuai-Chiao, but I found with what little I was able to get from a few seminars' worth of integrated combatives that those skills needed some real-world framing, and that I needed a regular diet of being able to practice/test those skills, in order to truly retain them.

Regardless, I do believe strongly that we as legal concealed-carry citizens tend to place too much weight on "the gun" - and that for the worse, we start viewing the world's problems as nails simply because we're carrying a hammer. Even with what little integrated combatives and force-on-force I've done, I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that every time I did something wrong and had my *** handed to me, it was because I tried to solve the problem with a tool (be it the knife or the gun, or an improvised weapon), rather than having realized that I just needed to solve the problem.

And towards this end, I also think that myself - and pretty much the entire concealed-carry/defensive-shooting community - would benefit from more time in force-on-force training. Decision-making is more than half the game, and knowing not only how to fight, but when to fight or even if to fight, is truly the way to win.
Click to expand...

I considered myself fit, as I had been lifting weights regularly for the past 7 years, ever since I got a pre diabetic diagnosis, and set out to reverse that, losing 40 lbs in the process.

On Feb 20th of this year, I bought a used Schwinn Airdyne, in order to add HIIT cardio to my routine. I've only been on the Airdyne 10 minutes a day, doing HIIT at 30 second intervals. As shown by the attached screenshot, the improvement was significant, with my resting heart rate dropping 10bpm.
 

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TSiWRX said:
100 ft. or 10 ft., there is so much truth in this. Great quote, @SMSgtRod . 👍

And towards this end:







The canonical Tueller Drill ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill ), as it stands, should *not* be interpreted to be more than it is.

The reality is much more along the lines of SMSgtRod's wise words above, and this ITS article digs into the reasons why - https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/...myth-why-the-21-foot-rule-isnt-a-rule-at-all/

Overall, we've seen time and again in CCTV footage (such as those analyzed by the Active Self Protection YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsE_m2z1NrvF2ImeNWh84mw) as well as by media-covered events of the good guys being triumphant in unarmed/improvised combatives against armed aggressors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Thalys_train_attack) that just because there is a gun involved, it doesn't necessarily mean that the person with the gun will triumph.

Distance and timing are real-world worries for the one with the gun just as much as for the one who is using OC spray, a contact weapon, or even bare-hands.

Towards this, in last summer's Practically Tactical "Diagnostic Handgun" class (see links at the end of this post - https://www.thearmorylife.com/forum/threads/targets.346/page-2#post-5432), Joe Weyer, the chief instructor, recounted to us how he eventually reconciled his observations of the misses he documented in his study of police shootings. During his study, he noticed that the misses (regardless of whether the officer shooting ended up hitting or missing his/her intended target) typically were either low in front of the intended target or were high over. Joe's theory became that such misses occurred because the officer either got on the trigger too early from the draw (low hits in front of the target) or too late (high over, as the office then tried to shield him/herself in defense or were otherwise pushed back), and that both of these failures could be prevented by revising what we think of as "retention shooting." That, in-reality, retention shooting needs to be a default capability of our drawstroke, and that our capabilities for achieving center-mass hits from retention should extend at least to the parameters set forth in the canonical Tueller Drill, if not well beyond it.

^ I know, this is very, very abstract.

Let's try to make it more concrete. ;)

Look back at the canonical Tueller Drill, via this old police training video -



The last scenario depicted showed the canonical gap of 21 ft. from defender to aggressor.

In this case, the defender engages from full extension.

My question: would you really want to?

Joe had all of us - myself included, and I'm by far *not* the fastest guy out of the blocks - consistently engaging the high-center-chest scoring oval of an OPOTA Qual target (https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/opota-rqt2-ohio-opota-qualification-target-version-2.asp) from-retention, at upwards of 7 yards (with just a little more practice, I was assured from not only the instructional cadre but also fellow classmates who'd been through the class before, this could be stretched easily to 10 to 12 yards), coming out of inside-the-waistband concealment at 1 second or less. And no, this wasn't the old "speed-rock," it's a modern draw-stroke from a balanced fighting stance.

Run-fu. Empty-hands skills. A fast draw and the ability to engage from-retention. These are split-second choices that we will need to make, when things go down the way they do as SMSgtRod so eloquently put it.
Click to expand...


The following video explains more indepth:

 
Remember a couple years ago when the "knockout game", was trending all over the net. Basically youths making a game out of trying to ambush and knockout unassuming people trying to go about their business.

Well, a stronger neck could potentially prevent someone victimized in such a way from actually being knocked out, as well as preventing concussion or brain injury. Other benefits include reduced neck strain from electronic device usage, and poor sleep posture leading to neck pains.

The problem though, it's always been quite difficult to isolate the neck muscles, and exercise them directly. Well, now there's a product that seems to be able to do just that. I've been using it for a couple of weeks. The Iron Neck, Varsity edition.
CDKimRS.jpg
 
bigx5murf said:
Remember a couple years ago when the "knockout game", was trending all over the net. Basically youths making a game out of trying to ambush and knockout unassuming people trying to go about their business.

Well, a stronger neck could potentially prevent someone victimized in such a way from actually being knocked out, as well as preventing concussion or brain injury. Other benefits include reduced neck strain from electronic device usage, and poor sleep posture leading to neck pains.

The problem though, it's always been quite difficult to isolate the neck muscles, and exercise them directly. Well, now there's a product that seems to be able to do just that. I've been using it for a couple of weeks. The Iron Neck, Varsity edition.
CDKimRS.jpg
Click to expand...
Good luck with that!

That thing looks like it screams spinal injury.
 
10mmLife said:
Good luck with that!

That thing looks like it screams spinal injury.
Click to expand...

The difference between this and most neck workouts is the lack of neck flexion. This device relies more on isometric training of the neck muscles (holding neck still in place under resistance). So the risk of spinal injury is significantly reduced, due to lack of neck flexion.
 
so going to resurrect this great thread.
10mmLife said:
I've have been training in Kali also known as Arnis or Escrima and another art, Pencak Silat for many years. Both these arts have a heavy emphasis on bladed combat and empty hands techniques.

Does anybody else train in a type of defensive art or combat art to supplement their firearm skills?

If so what arts do you train or what arts would you like to train in?
Click to expand...
Despite training in a few forms, I find myself reverting back to kick boxing for a few reasons:

It's close to street fighting, at least the form I studied, my KB instructors were skilled in Chito-ryu, Karate (shotokan) Taekwondo, and a few other "hard" form backgrounds. It's the one that doesn't require a too complicated kata. One or two of my vicious kicks and your arm or leg is broken. At that point I have options, just walk away (always my go-to), convince you to yield, or finish you (legally opaque) so that is a good outcome.

As for weapons beyond firearms - yes, and while several will disagree, my preference is sword and knives. Let's face it - I won't have my escrima sticks, butterfly knives, kama or other MA weapons on me out and about in the public. I will have a knife or two and a sword in the truck. I practice a modern tameshigiri. So, yes, cutting things in half.

Many of the points raised here are quite valid and I agree that not enough emphasis on defense outside of a gun is given to folks. Michael Janich who writes for USCCA has an article on this titled "Beyond the Gun". His best work on the subject this year. A lot of good folks believe they will be able to outdraw attackers. Faith is a good thing, but realism is better. Ok - now let's get the discussion going!
 
10mmLife said:
I've have been training in Kali also known as Arnis or Escrima and another art, Pencak Silat for many years. Both these arts have a heavy emphasis on bladed combat and empty hands techniques.

Does anybody else train in a type of defensive art or combat art to supplement their firearm skills?

If so what arts do you train or what arts would you like to train in?
Click to expand...
I talked to a Traditional Kinpo dojo near me. I need to get off my tuuchus and drive down and try a class. I had done Ninjitsu, but that dojo is too far away now. Sadly, we don’t have Krav Maga near me.
 
bigx5murf said:
Remember a couple years ago when the "knockout game", was trending all over the net. Basically youths making a game out of trying to ambush and knockout unassuming people trying to go about their business.

Well, a stronger neck could potentially prevent someone victimized in such a way from actually being knocked out, as well as preventing concussion or brain injury. Other benefits include reduced neck strain from electronic device usage, and poor sleep posture leading to neck pains.

The problem though, it's always been quite difficult to isolate the neck muscles, and exercise them directly. Well, now there's a product that seems to be able to do just that. I've been using it for a couple of weeks. The Iron Neck, Varsity edition.
CDKimRS.jpg
Click to expand...

Respectfully you just told me you have never witnessed a whole lot of fights (UFC doesn’t count as theirs rules)

It doesn’t matter how strong you make your neck. I’d it or your jaw take a punch from the side and your getting knocked unconscious more times than not. Have seen it several dozen times in a high US Penitentiary. And also a byproduct is once they (real thugs) get you on the ground they are smashing your head in the ground (usually stomping you) and your getting a concussion and renders unconscious

Again what I have seen real violent thugs do for 20 years.
 
I studied TKD and Judo for several years but now I'm 60 years old and crippled and no matter what I know I wouldn't last 2 minutes in a real fight.

So I carry pepper spray along with my gun.

I also go to the gym 5 days a week and work out around my disabilities
 
The Night Rider said:
I studied TKD and Judo for several years but now I'm 60 years old and crippled and no matter what I know I wouldn't last 2 minutes in a real fight.

So I carry pepper spray along with my gun.

I also go to the gym 5 days a week and work out around my disabilities
Click to expand...


See I have a theory about that. I am 56 and a smoker. My guess is I have about 60 seconds in a fight before I'm out of breath. I will make those 60 seconds count. If I'm fighting these days it isn't for fun like in the old days. It's because I have to . I will have no second thoughts about biting someone's nose off, jamming my thumb in their eye and pulling it out of the socket, breaking legs at the knee or arms at the elbow, grabbing someone by the balls, punching them straight in the throat, etc.. It's me or them and I will do whatever I can to insure it's not me.
 
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