That is awesome work! I have contemplated such a conversion. What difficulties or challenges did you encounter, if any? Do you mind sharing a few more details such as what barrel and/or bushing you installed, any fitment issues, etc?
The Super .38
- Thread starter shanneba
- Start date
One of my favorite authors and book series.
Talyn
Emissary
The Conversion work was simple for both the RIA & SA Loaded Target.
Just an appropriate 38 Super barrel, barrel bushing (BarSto for the 38 Supers) (Nowlin kit for the 9x23 Winchester), and different power/strength recoil spring appropriate for the cartridges.
A skilled gunsmith to adjust the extractor (once adjusted both RIA & SA run fine with just a barrel swap) and any barrel & barrel bushing fitment, plus the appropriate 38 Super magazine(s) which also works for the 9x23 Winchester (not the 9x23 Largo).
The 38 Super Conversions were straight forward, but I had to test different recoil spring weight for the more powerful 9X23 Win.
So, basically, I just have 3 sets of barrels and recoil spring to swap out for the 3 cartridges for the SA Loaded Target & 2 for the RIA.
Grayfox
Professional
The 38 Auto and 38 Super are identical in size. The 38 Super was developed by simply adding more powder to the 38 Auto. However, the pressure difference is dramatic. While its completely safe to shoot 38 Auto in a 38 Super, its dangerous to try to shoot 38 Super in a 38 Auto. Don't do it.
For this reason all 38 Super ammo is marked +P even though its standard pressure for that cartridge. The +P designation is to warn people not to use this ammo in a 38 Auto.
As for headspacing, the 38 Super is a semi-rimmed cartridge. Originally guns were built to headspace on that tiny rim. This resulted in less than stellar accuracy. I believe it was in the 1970s that Barsto began making barrels that headspaced on the case mouth like other semi-auto cartridges. Accuracy greatly improved and soon most makers had changed to headspacing on the case mouth. However, Colt proved to be stubborn. They didn't make the change until sometime in the mid to late-80s.
As for converting a 9mm 1911 to 38 Super, I have done two. All that is required is a 38 Super barrel and magazine. Its possible you may need to change the recoil spring, but not necessarily as 1911s in 9mm and 38 Super use the same recommended weight spring.
The first was the RIA Tact II. I simply ordered a 38 Super barrel directly from RIA. It was almost a drop in requiring very little fitting. I did this one myself.
The second is my current project gun that isn't quite perfected yet. I started with a Ruger SR1911 lightweight Commander in 9mm. These come with a Nowlin style ramped barrel. I got the barrel from Barsto. This required a full fitting. Fortunately, I have a good friend who is a very skilled 1911 gunsmith who did this work for me.
Right now I'm experimenting with recoil springs. Once I get that where I want it, this gun will become my new EDC.
The 38 Auto and 38 Super are identical in size. The 38 Super was developed by simply adding more powder to the 38 Auto. However, the pressure difference is dramatic. While its completely safe to shoot 38 Auto in a 38 Super, its dangerous to try to shoot 38 Super in a 38 Auto. Don't do it.
For this reason all 38 Super ammo is marked +P even though its standard pressure for that cartridge. The +P designation is to warn people not to use this ammo in a 38 Auto.
As for headspacing, the 38 Super is a semi-rimmed cartridge. Originally guns were built to headspace on that tiny rim. This resulted in less than stellar accuracy. I believe it was in the 1970s that Barsto began making barrels that headspaced on the case mouth like other semi-auto cartridges. Accuracy greatly improved and soon most makers had changed to headspacing on the case mouth. However, Colt proved to be stubborn. They didn't make the change until sometime in the mid to late-80s.
As for converting a 9mm 1911 to 38 Super, I have done two. All that is required is a 38 Super barrel and magazine. Its possible you may need to change the recoil spring, but not necessarily as 1911s in 9mm and 38 Super use the same recommended weight spring.
The first was the RIA Tact II. I simply ordered a 38 Super barrel directly from RIA. It was almost a drop in requiring very little fitting. I did this one myself.
The second is my current project gun that isn't quite perfected yet. I started with a Ruger SR1911 lightweight Commander in 9mm. These come with a Nowlin style ramped barrel. I got the barrel from Barsto. This required a full fitting. Fortunately, I have a good friend who is a very skilled 1911 gunsmith who did this work for me.
Right now I'm experimenting with recoil springs. Once I get that where I want it, this gun will become my new EDC.
A pretty qualified gunsmithing 1911’s (and tevokvers he teaches at Revolverfest and revolver roundup) told me you can convert a 38 Suoer to 9mm in a 1911 but 9 to 38 not so much
So that said my question With the 38 super being semi rimmed did you have issue running the stock 9mm ??
Grayfox
Professional
I did not. But for a long time the 9mm in a 1911 proved to be somewhat troublesome due to the shorter cartridge length. I think most of those issues have been solved by now. So it doesn't matter.
The 38 Super is the same length as the .45acp. It fits perfectly in a 1911 and has been chambered in them since the 1930s.
I'm an opinionated old fart who believes that the 9mm just doesn't belong in a 1911.
I did not. But for a long time the 9mm in a 1911 proved to be somewhat troublesome due to the shorter cartridge length. I think most of those issues have been solved by now. So it doesn't matter.
The 38 Super is the same length as the .45acp. It fits perfectly in a 1911 and has been chambered in them since the 1930s.
I'm an opinionated old fart who believes that the 9mm just doesn't belong in a 1911.
Just discussing ak don’t take this as arguing. I believe the issue with the 9mm in 1911’s was the extractor was hard to tension more yha the length but several companies seem to have cracked the code
Also an issue as reported by Larry Vickers and he knows more tjan probably anyone here in 1911’s was 9mm 1911’s run better with a ramped barrel 45 doesn't need it because it’s just large enough the round does not care. Where a traditional barrel in 9mm can also have feeding issues with the small (especially hollow points) hitting that little. A ramped barrel doesn't have that and works more dependable .
While I like the 45 I have to say an all steel frame Commander in 9mm is cheating
Grayfox
Professional
No problem. We're just talking here.
You do make a valid point. As I mentioned earlier, the Ruger I'm currently working on came with a ramped barrel. I believe this has become a common solution to 9mm feeding issues.
Again, my opinionated old self, a 9mm 1911 is for wussies who can't handle a real pistol.
If you want a single action 9mm pistol, get a Hi-Power.
You do make a valid point. As I mentioned earlier, the Ruger I'm currently working on came with a ramped barrel. I believe this has become a common solution to 9mm feeding issues.
Again, my opinionated old self, a 9mm 1911 is for wussies who can't handle a real pistol.
If you want a single action 9mm pistol, get a Hi-Power.
No problem. We're just talking here.
You do make a valid point. As I mentioned earlier, the Ruger I'm currently working on came with a ramped barrel. I believe this has become a common solution to 9mm feeding issues.
Again, my opinionated old self, a 9mm 1911 is for wussies who can't handle a real pistol.
If you want a single action 9mm pistol, get a Hi-Power.
Well according to Nighthawk 75% of their 1911 orders are for 9mm so while skne of us kine 45’s it’s all about sales.
And I wouldn’t call a 124 gold dot at 1,200 FPS exactly wussy LOL
@Talyn , Thank you! I appreciate the details about "how you did it!" You just may have sparked enough of a fire to get me going on a similar project. I've been practicing my 1911 'smithing for quite a few years now, and have taken an "armorers' " course (twice, I listen slower than I talk...), so I think it's time for me to step up and do this. I'll have to start layin' a little cash aside for the barrel.
I've fitted a barrel to a 45 ACP pistol (Wilson Combat's "drop in yet gunsmith fitted"... LOL) to replace the one that I bulged due to a squib (see the recent thread on Monarch ammo), so I'm already past the "It's the first time I've done this" barrier. I'll just have to order a five gallon bucket of extractors because I always mess up the the first one or two that I try to fit. Plus, if my memory serves me correctly, I don't think I've ever messed with a 9mm extractor. From what I've read, been told and video demos I've seen there are some subtle differences in how they're fitted.
The nice thing is... Starline has 38 Super brass in supply.
While we're tossing out opinions here, here's mine on 9x19 in a 1911 pistol: 1) In a steel frame govt or commander, it's the perfect "starter gun" to introduce a new shooter (think wife, g/f, grandkids, etc.) to shooting a 1911. 2) I detest anything smaller than a Commander size pistol chambered in 45 ACP. I've owned several of them over the years and have had NOTHING but issues with them. The issue is in the length of the 45 ACP cartridge vs how much the frame must be shortened. BUT... because the 9mm is a shorter cartridge, it can be made to work consistently in the 1911s that are shorter than Commander length. I love carrying a "chopped and channeled" 1911 in 9x19 and don't feel handicapped by the limited bullet supply.No problem. We're just talking here.
You do make a valid point. As I mentioned earlier, the Ruger I'm currently working on came with a ramped barrel. I believe this has become a common solution to 9mm feeding issues.
Again, my opinionated old self, a 9mm 1911 is for wussies who can't handle a real pistol.
If you want a single action 9mm pistol, get a Hi-Power.
By the way, do any of you know how to identify an "optimist" who is a concealed carrier? Answer: It's the one who carries a 5 shot snub with no backup and no reloads...
@Grayfox , Thank you also for your "How I did it..." details. One thing to note: When one searches the sites of the various aftermarket 1911 parts makers, one will note that, typically, they do not sell a 38 Super extractor, only one for a 9x19. If they are kind enough to supply an adequate description of their product, they will mention that said 9x19 extractor is also for 38 Super.The 38 Auto and 38 Super are identical in size. The 38 Super was developed by simply adding more powder to the 38 Auto. However, the pressure difference is dramatic. While its completely safe to shoot 38 Auto in a 38 Super, its dangerous to try to shoot 38 Super in a 38 Auto. Don't do it.
For this reason all 38 Super ammo is marked +P even though its standard pressure for that cartridge. The +P designation is to warn people not to use this ammo in a 38 Auto.
As for headspacing, the 38 Super is a semi-rimmed cartridge. Originally guns were built to headspace on that tiny rim. This resulted in less than stellar accuracy. I believe it was in the 1970s that Barsto began making barrels that headspaced on the case mouth like other semi-auto cartridges. Accuracy greatly improved and soon most makers had changed to headspacing on the case mouth. However, Colt proved to be stubborn. They didn't make the change until sometime in the mid to late-80s.
As for converting a 9mm 1911 to 38 Super, I have done two. All that is required is a 38 Super barrel and magazine. Its possible you may need to change the recoil spring, but not necessarily as 1911s in 9mm and 38 Super use the same recommended weight spring.
The first was the RIA Tact II. I simply ordered a 38 Super barrel directly from RIA. It was almost a drop in requiring very little fitting. I did this one myself.
The second is my current project gun that isn't quite perfected yet. I started with a Ruger SR1911 lightweight Commander in 9mm. These come with a Nowlin style ramped barrel. I got the barrel from Barsto. This required a full fitting. Fortunately, I have a good friend who is a very skilled 1911 gunsmith who did this work for me.
Right now I'm experimenting with recoil springs. Once I get that where I want it, this gun will become my new EDC.
The main issue (again, from what I've read and heard) is that tuning a 9x19 extractor so that it'll run 38 Super is that it may have to be slightly modified for correct deflection due to the semi-rimmed case of the 38 Super.
Anchorite
Custom
DISCLAIMER: I do not own and have never owned any 1911 chambered in either 38S or 9mm. The operative word, owned.
I have shot a number of 9mm 1911s over the years (and only one 38 Super).
IME, 9mm Officer-sized 1911s are typically more reliable than Commander-sized, and both are more reliable than Gov't-sized 9mms. My guess is that the slide is lighter which aids tremendously in cycling and feeding. I suppose too the recoil spring in the Officer models is right for the 9mm. I don't know how they are sprung in the Commander and Government sized guns.
Additionally, all the 9mm 1911s I have ever fooled with were run with hot loads, and WET.
Again, just my experience.
I have shot a number of 9mm 1911s over the years (and only one 38 Super).
IME, 9mm Officer-sized 1911s are typically more reliable than Commander-sized, and both are more reliable than Gov't-sized 9mms. My guess is that the slide is lighter which aids tremendously in cycling and feeding. I suppose too the recoil spring in the Officer models is right for the 9mm. I don't know how they are sprung in the Commander and Government sized guns.
Additionally, all the 9mm 1911s I have ever fooled with were run with hot loads, and WET.
Again, just my experience.
Precisely. The "chopped and channeled" small 1911s in 45 ACP just don't have enough "frame space" nor "slide space" to correctly balance the weight of the slide with the required action/recoil spring. The 9x19 cartridge, on the other hand, suffers in the govt size and Commander size guns because of the opposite issue: It is tricky to "spring" them correctly to balance the recoil/action spring against the weight of the slide. However, the 9x19 in smaller "chopped and channeled" 1911s on the other hand, finds its "goldilocks" home in them.
Have we about beat this dead horse into submission yet? I didn't intend to drag everyone too far away from the original posting's subject matter. I tend to find a lot of rabbit trails for some reason...
PieterCoetzee
Custom
I do love the Commander. It seems about the perfect size 1911. That being said I had two Detonics Combat Masters (Officer Model 6 shot mags with 3" barrels). They were perfect carry guns especially as a pair. They got sold to a buddy who had to have them. I just bought a pair of Rock Island Officer Model size guns with 3.5" barrels. Im gonna give the double shoulder holster carry a chance again. Because Im gonna try carrying two, I am adding ambi safeties
...and Im working on a local custom holster guy to get him to make a Six Pack for spare mags....
...and Im working on a local custom holster guy to get him to make a Six Pack for spare mags....