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Thoughts about the Lee Breechlock and Hornady Lock-n-Load Bushing Schemes

RedGoat

Elite
I think that either I'm getting old and crusty, or I'm just an outright contrarian, but I just don't really care for either the Lee nor the Hornady quick attach / detach bushing schemes. I admit that that they serve their stated purpose well enough: They make it pretty quick to swap out died IF and ONLY IF the dies are already preset in a bushing of the given scheme at hand. For those of us who've been reloading a while, reaping the full benefit requires us to retrofit whatever we already have with the fancy new bushings, and woe be unto you if you're running a mix of equipment requiring both bushing types plus the standard threaded dies. That situation gains NOTHING but pure frustration. I have one Hornady single stage press that had the lock-n-load system. I removed the Hornady adapter bushing and replaced it with a standard 7/8" threaded bushing from RCBS. For my Lee presses (two hand presses and one Challenger), I simply took their steel breech lock bushings and applied JB Weld to permanently lock them into the press. The cons also (in my view and experience) include a tendency for the adapter bushings to work loose while the press is in operation. The reversion to a standard 7/8" threaded interface solved that issue.

What do ya'll think? Am I just being a Luddite? What's your experiences?
 
Dunno, never used any. Would be nice if still using a single stagevpress. Got rid of my single stage for an 8 station turret press about 7 years ago. I never un-install my dies now. If I get a new caliber and need room, I simply get a new toolhead. Can use 4 2 die sets or 2 4die sets in each toolhead.
 
Dunno, never used any. Would be nice if still using a single stagevpress. Got rid of my single stage for an 8 station turret press about 7 years ago. I never un-install my dies now. If I get a new caliber and need room, I simply get a new toolhead. Can use 4 2 die sets or 2 4die sets in each toolhead.
That's one way to go about it...

I agree that either scheme is nice IF one only uses a single type of these. Its when one is dealing with a mix of single stage presses using a variety of these schemes and/or has to retrofit a LOT of dies with one of these bushing types that it gets painful.
 
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I haven't used it yet but I own it with the Buchanan hand press and Hornady L/L system. I'll be loading the various .32's for revolver, the .38/.357 revolver, .41 revolver and .22 Hornet rifle and eventually .30 M1 carbine. So 5 sets of dies will cover everything I'm interested in. It seemed like a good idea at the time. We'll see.
 
I only have one friend that has them - and it’s on a Hornady press. He is much newer/younger to reloading than me, so he’s fine with it. I guess it’s more about what your grew up with than anything else.

I personally can’t find a need/use for them. I’m quite content with loading what I already have, and how I go about it.
 
After the many thousands rounds of various ammunition, I could never find a purpose for the system. The first reloads I ran was off a single stage, and it was quickly relegated to support operations and a turret press took it's place.
 
i have used both, but the hornady for decapping as not a fan of their dies. other than that both have worked as needed for a single stage. i'm comparing those 2 with the 2 dillon 550's i have and have used for 40+ years
i too have a 550c and i have tool heads set up with Lee dies, but on the Lee single stage, and also that useless Pro-4000, i do use the bushing inserts for a decapper die (pro-4000) , and a swag die (single stage) ...just makes it easier for me to drop one in, all pre-set.
 
I only have one friend that has them - and it’s on a Hornady press. He is much newer/younger to reloading than me, so he’s fine with it. I guess it’s more about what your grew up with than anything else.

I personally can’t find a need/use for them. I’m quite content with loading what I already have, and how I go about it.
I started this thread to get all of y'all's viewpoints because I try to always assume, when it comes to my strong preferences, that I can easily have a blind spot or haven't thought of / discovered a major pro or con.

@Anchorite - I think that you're making the same point as I tried to make in the original post: whether or not one or the other of these systems is desirable or not depend very much on what one starts out using. I'm from the days when some press makers still had non-standard (as of nowadays) shell holders, so one had to purchase THEIRS for THEIR presses (Herters comes to mind). I've tried very hard to avoid such lock-in ever since.

One thing that, to me, is reminiscent of those times is that Lee is starting to make some of their specialty dies where the die BODY is not 7/8" threaded, but rather it is "breech lock". Yeah. "Breech Lock IN" to their system! No thank you.

At any rate, I can see where someone who's just getting started into reloading and is purchasing all their equipment in today's marketplace could potentially benefit (with regard to convenience) by selecting to go all Breech Lock or all Lock-n-Load. Either system DOES do what it claims as far as providing non-fiddly die swaps with a twist of the wrist PROVIDED that the said dies are already installed, set, and locked into one of their system bushings. Otherwise, either system is just as "fiddly" and, to me, as "inconvenient" as the old standard 7/8"x14 thread-it-in system.

I use the Hornady locking die rings on all my dies that I wish to retain settings for. Those rings provide a rock-solid setting retention from use-to-use and it only takes a few extra moments to spin the die into place and wrench it down slightly.

Another downside, in my book, of the Lee and Hornady systems is storage bulk. That might sound picky, but storage space for 100+ dies adds up fast whenever the extra bulk of those fancy bushings must be accommodated.
 
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I'm day one new, still studying and learning. So I don't really know anything. But I went with the system because I (probably mistakenly) thought I'd have to fine tune the die settings each time I swapped them in/out whereas with the system it's fiddle/nudge/cringe/gripe once but then it's finally miraculously set correctly and I don't have to fiddle and cringe every other time. So I thought I was setting myself up to avoid a lot of that. Apparently I set myself up to avoid 17 complete turns to screw in the die by having a 1/4 turn magic solution. And worst case I have to decide to abandon it and reset all my dies once for a "normal" press, then go through the 17 turns each time. But then, I don't know anything yet so all that may be wrong.
 
I'm day one new, still studying and learning. So I don't really know anything. But I went with the system because I (probably mistakenly) thought I'd have to fine tune the die settings each time I swapped them in/out whereas with the system it's fiddle/nudge/cringe/gripe once but then it's finally miraculously set correctly and I don't have to fiddle and cringe every other time. So I thought I was setting myself up to avoid a lot of that. Apparently I set myself up to avoid 17 complete turns to screw in the die by having a 1/4 turn magic solution. And worst case I have to decide to abandon it and reset all my dies once for a "normal" press, then go through the 17 turns each time. But then, I don't know anything yet so all that may be wrong.
@LDB - If I understand you correctly, you're pointing out the main advantage of either the Lee or Hornady bushing systems over the "old way". It's a quick twist to swap a die versus numerous turns of the die body. I admit that is a distinct plus in favor of either system over the old "twist and shout" method.

So you're still dialing in your preferences and you've discovered what I have: For dies that require "fiddling" every time they're used, the Lee / Hornady systems don't eliminate the "fiddling". I've found that I can easily "set it and forget it" for utility dies such as a universal decapper and for my sizing dies. However, I find that I wind up "fiddling" with the settings on seater dies, crimp dies, expander dies (handgun), powder charge drop dies almost every single usage.

What can I say? I like to experiment with my loads. I have some "standard" go-to loads, but I still like to try out new bullets, new powders etc. To do so requires "fiddling". This is where the old "thread it in" approach still shines. A simple lock-down lock ring (or, GASP, a Lee die "lock" ring with the rubber friction o-ring) is the utmost in simplicity for "fiddling" with the die setting.

The Hornady Lock-n-Load system or the Lee system requires three hands sometimes to manipulate the adapter bushing (or hold it so it doesn't twist out of the press while making requisite adjustments) plus they STILL require a die lock ring to bind the die into the adapter bushing. Lee now offers a Breech-Lock bushing with an integrated lock ring, so I'd rate that approach as slightly easier to "fiddle" with. However, Lee's older steel breech lock adapter bushings and their newer aluminum ones without the integrated lock ring also, same as Hornady, and require a separate locking ring if one really wants to have rock-solid retention of settings. AND.... I've found BOTH the Lee and Hornady systems have a tendency for their adapter bushings to work loose from the press during extended sessions. It's annoying to say the least!

Also, I might mention here, since I forgot to do so in my original post, that I move my dies around among my various brands and types of presses quite a bit, so in reality I find that I'm quite often changing the setting on dies that normally would have been "permanently" set due to differences in ram stroke height, tool head thickness, etc. Again, what can I say? I am an incurable tinkerer / experimenter. I also have to shuffle that actual presses onto and off of my bench due to the constraints of a very small work space, but "press mounting and swapping" is a subject for another thread...
 
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I like the Lee setup because I own the 6pack press and app.
I just keep a set of setup dies and swap them out when it's time to change.
I don't do rifle calibers on either or some pistol rounds so it's the traditional dies on two other presses.
 
I like the Lee setup because I own the 6pack press and app.
I just keep a set of setup dies and swap them out when it's time to change.
I don't do rifle calibers on either or some pistol rounds so it's the traditional dies on two other presses.
If I'm not mistaken, all of the current Lee progressive presses, as well as Hornady's, employ their respective quick-change die bushings rather than changeable tool heads (Dillon and RCBS). Lacking a changeable toolhead, it'd really stink to have to hand thread a full set of dies in and out everytime a cartridge swap is needed, so yeah, the quick change bushing system makes a lot of sense in that context. I suspect that having a fixed integral toolhead utilizing quick change bushings is one major factor which helps Lee and Hornady (to a lesser degree) keep the cost of their progressive presses as low as they are relative to Dillon and RCBS.

A downside of the quick change bushing system on a progressive press is that it imposes a limitation on how closely the die stations can be spaced. The wider spacing dictates an increased overall diameter of the ram deck to accommodate the wider spacing and necessarily yields a little more play into the stability of said deck / shell support. The Dillon 550 is has one of the most stable ram deck / shell supports of existing progressive presses because it allows a very small ram / deck / shell plate radius. I'm not touting it over any other, just stating the facts about the physics.

One picks their poison and pays their money. Everything is about compromises and tradeoffs.
 
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(sigh)
Yes. I’m glad I keep things simple with my Rockchuckers and Jones arbor press.

All this newfangled stuff today could get a fella into a lot of conflict.
Very true. I find a lot of entertainment value in trying to keep it all sorted out and staying as current as I can on "all the stuff." But, I'm retired and have a "little extra time" on my hands....

For what its worth, the RCBS Rockchuckers have been a favorite of mine for a long time. I currently own a couple: one is my "original" purchased in the early '70s, the other is a relatively recent purchase, a Rockchucker Supreme (aka Rockchucker IV). Both are solid presses and do yeoman's work on anything that I ask of them. My only regret is that my bench space is very limited and I can't keep them both mounted and ready along with whatever other flavor of the week I'm tinkering with... :cry:

How limited is my bench space? It's 24" x 24"... So, VERY limited.
 
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Reloading trivia...

No cheating.....

What does the acronym RCBS stand for?
Rock Chuck Bullet Swager. No, I didn't cheat, really. If I recall correctly, I came across that while reading some online article within the past month or so. Otherwise, I'd have never remembered what the "BS" stands for. So if having it fairly fresh in my crusty, dusty archives is cheating, then I did... :cool: ;) :p
 
I've been a very satisfied "LEE" customer for a very long time ... IIRC I started reloading with "LEE" dies and press about 1972+/-. I started out with a 3 station turret press and a couple sets of their dies. Then I bought a Challenger single stage press for certain applications such as bullet pulling and case lengthening. Both of those processes only contain/require 1 die for each caliber. Over the years I've used nothing but "LEE" brand equipment with 1 exception which I'll mention in a minute. But right now I'll tell you that since that 1972 start, I've upgraded several times to different/additional presses. As it is right now I have a 4 station "LEE" Classic Turret press and have several sets of the "LEE" carbide 4 die sets for handguns. I bought all of them before the new LEE bushings came out. But I have a turret for each caliber I use regularly so the 4 dies remain in a turret and I change it out as needed much like a "Dillon" tool head without having to reset the dies. And I recently upgraded my old single stage Challenger to the newer Challenger III Breechlock single stage press. I use it with several breechlock bushings for bullet pulling, case lengthening, rifle calibers, etc, where only 1 or 2 dies is usually required for the loading process. I also have several extra bushings for situations where I might want to experiment with COL, powder charge, etc of various calibers. I personally really like the breechlock system for those times I need to bounce certain dies around for experimenting, etc, and the certainty of having all 4 dies of a specific caliber already set up on a turret ready for use and already adjusted to my standby calibers specs. And always keep in mind you can install a steel breechlock bushing in any breechlock press and still do the 17 turn screw in/out process as always. So in my situation, the breechlock bushings are a real boon to me and the way I use my dies, etc. And I've not yet had even one bushing work loose or change in position. I'd say that someone new and just starting out should certainly consider the bushings as an asset. And I'll always be a "LEE" fan and recommend them to anyone new to the game. I honestly believe their carbide dies are bar none the best on the market for several reasons. And everything they have is a quality product once one learns to use it. Oh yeh, everything I own involving reloading is "LEE" brand except my bullet puller. I won't name it but it is a quality tool and uses an adjustable lever over with a collet and it has a red handle.
 
I've been a very satisfied "LEE" customer for a very long time ... IIRC I started reloading with "LEE" dies and press about 1972+/-. I started out with a 3 station turret press and a couple sets of their dies. Then I bought a Challenger single stage press for certain applications such as bullet pulling and case lengthening. Both of those processes only contain/require 1 die for each caliber. Over the years I've used nothing but "LEE" brand equipment with 1 exception which I'll mention in a minute. But right now I'll tell you that since that 1972 start, I've upgraded several times to different/additional presses. As it is right now I have a 4 station "LEE" Classic Turret press and have several sets of the "LEE" carbide 4 die sets for handguns. I bought all of them before the new LEE bushings came out. But I have a turret for each caliber I use regularly so the 4 dies remain in a turret and I change it out as needed much like a "Dillon" tool head without having to reset the dies. And I recently upgraded my old single stage Challenger to the newer Challenger III Breechlock single stage press. I use it with several breechlock bushings for bullet pulling, case lengthening, rifle calibers, etc, where only 1 or 2 dies is usually required for the loading process. I also have several extra bushings for situations where I might want to experiment with COL, powder charge, etc of various calibers. I personally really like the breechlock system for those times I need to bounce certain dies around for experimenting, etc, and the certainty of having all 4 dies of a specific caliber already set up on a turret ready for use and already adjusted to my standby calibers specs. And always keep in mind you can install a steel breechlock bushing in any breechlock press and still do the 17 turn screw in/out process as always. So in my situation, the breechlock bushings are a real boon to me and the way I use my dies, etc. And I've not yet had even one bushing work loose or change in position. I'd say that someone new and just starting out should certainly consider the bushings as an asset. And I'll always be a "LEE" fan and recommend them to anyone new to the game. I honestly believe their carbide dies are bar none the best on the market for several reasons. And everything they have is a quality product once one learns to use it. Oh yeh, everything I own involving reloading is "LEE" brand except my bullet puller. I won't name it but it is a quality tool and uses an adjustable lever over with a collet and it has a red handle.
Yes, I think Lee by and large puts out very good products. I recommend them to anyone who's just getting started into reloading, especially those who are a) on a limited budget and/or b) uncertain as to whether reloading will be their "cup of tea." Often, as you've found, it turns out that Lee equipment is all one needs to "git 'er done" even after years in the hobby.

Lee's budget 4 station turret press, as well as the Classic 4 station turret press still utilize the 7/8x14 thread-in method for their turrets. I doubt that will ever change because I don't think there's enough "meat" in the turrets to utilize the Breech Lock method. However, their newer turret press and all their progressives now are Breech Lock only. They've even changed their cast iron Classic single station press to Breech Lock (I don't know if that is via a removable adapter bushing or not, I've yet to see any photos which give a good view of it and I've not seen one first hand.) I have and use a pair of the Lee Classic turret presses. I like them a lot for loading handgun ammo and 223 for my AR. Not so much for other bottleneck rifle cartridges that run through bolt actions.

The steel Breech Lock bushings are the ones that I JB Weld into my Lee Breech Lock presses to "convert" them to 7/8"x14 thread in only.

You've just mentioned another use case for which the quick change bushing systems are desirable: experimentation and/or load workup. I prefer a manually indexed turret press for those jobs, but the quick change setups would make those activities fairly painless on a single stage also.

Yeah, to my knowledge Lee doesn't make a bullet puller. I guess that means that it's never a mistake to use Lee stuff and/or that you can't make a mistake when using their stuff... :p

You also mentioned using twin Lee single stage presses, so I'll add this: I think the Lee Challenger single stage press is one of the best things going for those with limited space (like me in my current situation). The footprint of the Challenger press is TINY! I can easily mount a pair of them (as you mention doing) side-by-side on my 24"x24" reloading bench and still have plenty of space to reach between or around them.
 
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