What Ammo do You Carry and Why?

[iklwa]

I believe the key here is the bullet will travel 850 feet in one second.

From the Accurate Shooter forum, here is their rpm calculator:
Quick Version: MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM
850 x 720/12=51000 rpm

This bullet will not make 850 rpm in in one second as it has travelled 850 feet down our imaginary barrel.
At least this is the formula that makes sense to me.
Berger Bullets has a similar calculator but I couldn't find it handily.

 

[HansGruber]

I believe the key here is the bullet will travel 850 feet in one second.

From the Accurate Shooter forum, here is their rpm calculator:
Quick Version: MV X 720/Twist Rate = RPM
850 x 720/12=51000 rpm

This bullet will not make 850 rpm in in one second as it has travelled 850 feet down our imaginary barrel.
At least this is the formula that makes sense to me.
Berger Bullets has a similar calculator but I couldn't find it handily.

The bullet will make 850 Rotations Per Second (RPS)—well, that's what it leaves the muzzle at; it immediately begins to slow down as soon as it leaves the bore. But, we'll stick with the physics classroom conditions.

In 60 seconds, that’s 51000 Rotations Per Minute—and that bullet is 51000 feet (just under 10 miles) downrange.

Either way, it has made one complete rotation every 12” of travel.

On a square-on shot to center chest, it will make less than one complete rotation as it transits, unless the recipient is a very large specimen.

Again, not exactly the buzz saw they advertise.

Don't believe the hype.

 

[C. Sumpin]

All I know is while on the line in shoot school the dude beside me was shooting a 9mm, his hits made a "plink" on the metal target which failed to cause the target to fall. I was shooting a .45 that slammed the target down with such force the target reset itself. I'm staying with .45.

 

[rtjohnson4x4]

For a long time it has been Hornady Critical defense in my 9mm. In my own scenario testing I would l would get consistent expansion, good terminal ballistics and low flash in my conceal carry
On days I feel like carrying my .45, those get a hand load of 185gr ZERO Point projectile in front of 7.5gr of BE-86 powder (low flash)
In my 9mm, I recently switched out to the Federal Hydro-Shok DEEP. This round is a vast improvement over the original Hydro-Shok.
For me what I want is a rapid expansion in any caliber to stop an advancing threat
I want a larger flatter surface to push back or knock down the threat.
Tissue damage and vital damage is what most people look at. That is most likely going to happen no matter what in a gun fight situation. I prefer to look at it from a time an distance perspective. Once a threat is engaged time and distance are a person best advantage to come out on top and survive.
The larger the mass striking a person the more likely that person will stop advancing or be thrown off balance.
Even if there is no penetration or minimal. Just stoping the advancing threat, knocking down or throwing threat off balance. Puts you at an advantage.
Flat points do an awesome job of hitting hard and knocking thing down.
A hollow point is similar to a flat point with a cavity in the front.
Even if a hollow point doesn’t expand and tumbles instead. There is more surface area doing damage. Similar to those fluted point projectiles.
Now, if the threat is right on top of a person, meaning just right there either hands on or within arms reach.
When engagement happens and a person pulls the trigger (if they can)
Unless the attacker is wearing body armor. Penetration is going to happen, highest velocity and energy will be to your advantage. There again, that is why I prefer rapid expansion/larger surface area.
So many different opinions and thoughts. I have always appreciated the open and friendly discussions in the Springfield Armory Forum vastly different from some of the other forums I have read from.

Just my two bits for what it is worth


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[HansGruber]

On pushing back and knocking down:

Bullets can't knock down a person by impact alone; it simply isn’t physically possible. They won’t even push someone back.

If you have any doubt of this, shoot a bowling pin. They’re a great target to use, because they will stop pretty much any handgun bullet cold (absorbing all the energy), and you can see exactly how little force a handgun bullet really has.

A 9mm can knock a pin down with a square hit...but it's got to be a good hit; a .40 will be a little more forgiving, and might knock it back an inch or two. .357, 10mm, and .45 will reliably knock it down, and usually knock it back a several inches. .44 magnum puts it down with gusto, and knocks back a good foot.

.500 S&W, 440gr will throw it 30 feet into the bean field

A bowling pin weighs 3.5 pounds; multiply that by 25 to get a 170 pound person (which, let's face it...is pretty small for US standards nowadays), and I think it becomes fairly obvious that unless you're packing some seriously heavy metal, you have to rely on other mechanisms (physical damage/hypovolemic shock/et al) to put your assailant on the ground.

Additionally, consider this:

Any bullet that could strike a person with enough force to knock them down based on impact alone would also have to generate enough recoil to knock the shooter down.

If Newton knew what he was talking about, that is,

 

[Recusant]

For my stubby SP 101 I use Federal 38 Special (+P) 158 grain semi-wadcutter hollow points known to us old geezers as the FBI load. While it's been around for awhile it's tried and true. I noticed in the above threads no one addressed barrel length as a factor in bullet performance. I someone did I stand corrected.

 

[rtjohnson4x4]

On pushing back and knocking down:

Bullets can't knock down a person by impact alone; it simply isn’t physically possible. They won’t even push someone back.

If you have any doubt of this, shoot a bowling pin. They’re a great target to use, because they will stop pretty much any handgun bullet cold (absorbing all the energy), and you can see exactly how little force a handgun bullet really has.

A 9mm can knock a pin down with a square hit...but it's got to be a good hit; a .40 will be a little more forgiving, and might knock it back an inch or two. .357, 10mm, and .45 will reliably knock it down, and usually knock it back a several inches. .44 magnum puts it down with gusto, and knocks back a good foot.

.500 S&W, 440gr will throw it 30 feet into the bean field

A bowling pin weighs 3.5 pounds; multiply that by 25 to get a 170 pound person (which, let's face it...is pretty small for US standards nowadays), and I think it becomes fairly obvious that unless you're packing some seriously heavy metal, you have to rely on other mechanisms (physical damage/hypovolemic shock/et al) to put your assailant on the ground.

Additionally, consider this:

Any bullet that could strike a person with enough force to knock them down based on impact alone would also have to generate enough recoil to knock the shooter down.

If Newton knew what he was talking about, that is,

Touché, I was using knockdown in a relative term.
I was really trying to reference when a threat is engaged and a firearm is discharged and the bullet strikes the threat
The pain, shock or feeling causes the threat to stop. Threat could stumble and fall, slow down from the pain.
Depending on placement, sever a spine, critical joint to movement etc...
The larger the projectile the higher the probability.
Maybe the adrenaline is so amped that it will be irrelevant.



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[iklwa]

John “Pondoro” Taylor wrote a book on the subject of “knock down power” in which he proposed a formula to calculate the differences between various calibers and their likelihood of bringing down hard targets with one, well placed shot.

Those engaged in elephant hunting well know that were a gun/caliber combination sufficient to physically knock down an elephant, the shooter would wind up in next week (and probably dead as well).

The best one can hope for in elephant hunting and in self-defense is sufficient damage to vital organs that promotes rapid exsanguination, nervous system damage and the fast cessation of hostilities. All of which are dependent upon adequate penetration and frontal area.

 

[KASHIRA-3]

In these threads you are going to likely receive votes for every flavor of ammo known to man. The bottom line is that there are only a few basic camps in regards to such decisions.

You have the guys who are all caught up in the absolute ballistics and physics related factors and then you will have the guys who just want the ammo run reliably in their gun and put holes in things.

Sure, the science of ballistics is real and one projectile can certainly be shown to yield more effective results than some others, its true. That said, handguns are very minimalistic weapons to begin with and I have always felt that if the projectile comes out the end of the barrel, everything else is up to me. I do not hedge my bets on the anticipated special powers of one style of projectile over another. I am concerned more with caliber, basic marksmanship and shot placement. If we are to talk about a hunter making a successful shot on an elk at 850 yards, then yeah.. I think that type, style and design of projectile becomes increasingly important. If talking about handguns,.. eh, not so much. At least not in my personal estimation anyway.

I have always used the very first JHP type of ammo that show itself to run well in my gun. Its not much deeper than that to me. The likelihood that I am going to win a gunfight based on the ballistic related differences between company A's 9mm projectile and company B's 9mm projectile, is probably slim.

Federal 9bp is a rather old and some say, outdated but it has always worked very well in a variety of handguns that I own. I am not much concerned about how well it behaves in a block of jelly. I do however, accept that ballistic jelly is a fair and consistent method of measuring characteristics. Im just not all caught up in those specific factors. I primarily carry a plain ole JHP but have been known to carry FMJ in gun ( especially vintage guns) that seem to have trouble with them. If I must use a FMJ in a carry gun, I dont lose any sleep over it or do any handwringing.

 

[HansGruber]

Touché, I was using knockdown in a relative term.
I was really trying to reference when a threat is engaged and a firearm is discharged and the bullet strikes the threat
The pain, shock or feeling causes the threat to stop. Threat could stumble and fall, slow down from the pain.
Depending on placement, sever a spine, critical joint to movement etc...
The larger the projectile the higher the probability.
Maybe the adrenaline is so amped that it will be irrelevant.



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The only guaranteed mechanism of instant stop is a high CNS hit—upper spinal cord/brainstem (I believe anything above T3 kills all motor control to arms, etc...anything above C4 takes out the diaphragm; C1 is the instant, permanent off switch).

The next most reliable is hypovolemic shock—blood loss. Everyone, no matter what they are hopped up on, shuts down when the lose about 10% (give or take) of their blood supply—and they’ll start shutting down sooner, losing things like gross motor control quickly. Big holes, deep holes, lots of holes...with lots of big, deep holes in places that have lots of blood vessels being the best bet.

Pain compliance is what’s called a psychological stop; basically, they choose (perhaps not consciously) to stop. Many conditions—physiological, psychological, pharmacological—can effect this, so it's really not anything to be relied on.

 

[Bassbob]

In these threads you are going to likely receive votes for every flavor of ammo known to man. The bottom line is that there are only a few basic camps in regards to such decisions.

You have the guys who are all caught up in the absolute ballistics and physics related factors and then you will have the guys who just want the ammo run reliably in their gun and put holes in things.

Sure, the science of ballistics is real and one projectile can certainly be shown to yield more effective results than some others, its true. That said, handguns are very minimalistic weapons to begin with and I have always felt that if the projectile comes out the end of the barrel, everything else is up to me. I do not hedge my bets on the anticipated special powers of one style of projectile over another. I am concerned more with caliber, basic marksmanship and shot placement. If we are to talk about a hunter making a successful shot on an elk at 850 yards, then yeah.. I think that type, style and design of projectile becomes increasingly important. If talking about handguns,.. eh, not so much. At least not in my personal estimation anyway.

I have always used the very first JHP type of ammo that show itself to run well in my gun. Its not much deeper than that to me. The likelihood that I am going to win a gunfight based on the ballistic related differences between company A's 9mm projectile and company B's 9mm projectile, is probably slim.

Federal 9bp is a rather old and some say, outdated but it has always worked very well in a variety of handguns that I own. I am not much concerned about how well it behaves in a block of jelly. I do however, accept that ballistic jelly is a fair and consistent method of measuring characteristics. Im just not all caught up in those specific factors. I primarily carry a plain ole JHP but have been known to carry FMJ in gun ( especially vintage guns) that seem to have trouble with them. If I must use a FMJ in a carry gun, I dont lose any sleep over it or do any handwringing.

I agree with most of this. Generally I like big holes so on my own time, in most situations I carry a .45. It's what I have trained on for decades now and what I am most comfortable with. As for ammo, I use Federal HST in everything now. Because it has never failed in any handgun of any caliber I have. I know it will go off and I know it will land accurately. I also know that 8 of them from a short barreled .45 at 10 yards will cut a treated 4x4 in half. That's as far as my ballistic testing goes.

I agree enthusiastically with your comment about handguns being a minimalistic weapon, or as I often say, they are a compromise. So you utilize the handgun that checks the most boxes for whatever situation you are in and has the least negative attributes. This means sometimes I am carrying a short barreled .40, sometimes I am carrying a full size 9mm. Shot placement and fast target acquisition are key. And situational awareness.

 

[ralbec59]

We see many threads covering EDC load-outs and types of handgun choices.
I would like to know what ammunition folks actually carry in their EDC handguns and why they choose that particular brand/projectile.

My XD-S has seven rounds of 230 grain lead round nose 45 (no jacket) ACP.

Before you start laughing let me say, it has been my go-to loading for target/plinking for decades. It hits pretty hard (full power), it has good penetration and...here's possibly the best reason...it is the load invented by Mr. Browning to sort out the Army's issues. If it was good enough for JMB and LaGarde, it's good enough for me.
As an aside, 45 ACP can not rely on velocity to expand its projectiles. When fired, it has the starting diameter of the 9mm x 19 after expansion.

I have Magtech 165gr .45 auto +P at 1148 fps solid copper HP. But I'm not sure if they are safe to use consistently in my 1911 A-1. I have a stainless steel barrel in an older gun. I fired a magazine and it seemed fine.

 

[iklwa]

I have Magtech 165gr .45 auto +P at 1148 fps solid copper HP. But I'm not sure if they are safe to use consistently in my 1911 A-1. I have a stainless steel barrel in an older gun. I fired a magazine and it seemed fine.

It is my understanding the use of +P ammunition in Browning designed 1911 platform firearms is NOT recommended.
One area of concern is the unsupported case head above the feed ramp.
Look for a "belly" protrusion on fired cases. A bulge is bad juju.
Another concern is battering of the barrel link/frame interface due to the higher slide speed.
One magazine does not prove the ammunition is suitable for life and death situations.
Go get some Hornady or Sig fodder and don't worry about your handgun being beaten to pieces.

 

[HansGruber]

It is my understanding the use of +P ammunition in Browning designed 1911 platform firearms is NOT recommended.
One area of concern is the unsupported case head above the feed ramp.
Look for a "belly" protrusion on fired cases. A bulge is bad juju.
Another concern is battering of the barrel link/frame interface due to the higher slide speed.
One magazine does not prove the ammunition is suitable for life and death situations.
Go get some Hornady or Sig fodder and don't worry about your handgun being beaten to pieces.

I’m gonna have to hard disagree with all of that.

It’s very uncommon that to have ammunition from the same box/lot suddenly stop functioning in a pistol out of of a vetted magazine—barring damage/wear to the magazine.

In today’s conditions of severe ammunition limitations, it’s exceedingly difficult to put 50, 100, 200 or more rounds of one’s chosen carry load through a carry pistol...and, speaking as someone who used to do that...I don’t think it was ever necessary. I honestly can’t recall ever having a load that failed in a pistol on the 50th or 100th round...if it was going to fail, it failed in the first magazine.

I switched to running two magazines worth through during the last ammo drought, and then cycling my carry ammo mags a couple times a year...I’ve yet to have a failure.

Additionally, the bit about +P and 1911’s is pure hogwash. A limited amount will not damage the pistol. We can debate if it’s truly necessary (personally, I think a good 230gr JHP is more than plenty, but that’s MY choice in MY pistol; I don’t get to make the choice for ANYONE ELSE), but saying it will batter the pistol to pieces is hyperbole, at best.

 

[ScottJ]

I was just over at the Federal site, and saw their 22LR Punch listed. None available, but shown none the less. $9.99 per 50 round box. Would've bought some had it been available.

Buy Personal Defense Punch Rimfire for USD 11.99 | Federal Ammunition

Shopping for the Personal Defense Punch Rimfire - Learn more about the latest Personal Defense Punch Rimfire and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.

www.federalpremium.com

Oh, there was some .380 Punch available, at $20.99 per bx of 20, plus $12 s/h. Nope, not happening.

 

[BobM]

John “Pondoro” Taylor wrote a book on the subject of “knock down power” in which he proposed a formula to calculate the differences between various calibers and their likelihood of bringing down hard targets with one, well placed shot.

Those engaged in elephant hunting well know that were a gun/caliber combination sufficient to physically knock down an elephant, the shooter would wind up in next week (and probably dead as well).

The best one can hope for in elephant hunting and in self-defense is sufficient damage to vital organs that promotes rapid exsanguination, nervous system damage and the fast cessation of hostilities. All of which are dependent upon adequate penetration and frontal area.

Best elephant defense round? Don't tick it off in the 1st place? They're not normally aggressive.

 

[HansGruber]

I was just over at the Federal site, and saw their 22LR Punch listed. None available, but shown none the less. $9.99 per 50 round box. Would've bought some had it been available.

Buy Personal Defense Punch Rimfire for USD 11.99 | Federal Ammunition

Shopping for the Personal Defense Punch Rimfire - Learn more about the latest Personal Defense Punch Rimfire and other hunting or shooting gear at Federal Ammunition.

www.federalpremium.com

Oh, there was some .380 Punch available, at $20.99 per bx of 20, plus $12 s/h. Nope, not happening.

I don't get that.

You'd pay 4-5 times what .22LR normally runs (2019, it was $20-25 for 500rds, so, $2-2.50/50), but wouldn’t pay an extra 5-30% for .380 JHP (usually between $16-20/20)?

I get the s/h part, but that’s gonna be on the .22 as well, no?

 

[ScottJ]

I don't get that.

You'd pay 4-5 times what .22LR normally runs (2019, it was $20-25 for 500rds, so, $2-2.50/50), but wouldn’t pay an extra 5-30% for .380 JHP (usually between $16-20/20)?

I get the s/h part, but that’s gonna be on the .22 as well, no?

The $12 s/h blurb was mostly about the total cost per round concerning the .380 for just a 20rnd box. Yes, $12 is their s/h for all calibers.

I don't need any .380jhp. I'll allot my 2bxs per order to you.

 

[HansGruber]

Best elephant defense round? Don't tick it off in the 1st place? They're not normally aggressive.

“Karamojo“ Bell, one of the most successful elephant hunters of the time, swore the best elephant rifle was the 7mm Mauser (or was it 6.5 Mauser? Been a while since I read his stuff).

But then he shot them in the head at extremely close range.

 

[C. Sumpin]

+P+ jacketed hollow points in all calibre's, by a number of reliable manufacturers. Still "saving" the Winchester Black Talons. (Is that legal trouble if used for defense in my EDC?).

I flunked out of Algebra class my freshman year, brain lazy with a short attention span to long winded articles of minute detail.........But.........brain stem, head and heart shot placement seem most effective with any ammo/piece.