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Critical Defense or Federal HST?

I use 147grn HST in most all of my carry guns. Excellent, reliable expansion across barrel lengths with good penetration. Ammo Quest on Youtube has some great test data on most common carry calibers.
I carried Critical Defense for a while mainly because of its reliability in my compact Glock, but after seeing some gel tests, I switched to 124gr HST. The balance between penetration and expansion feels more reassuring for me.
Anyone here still prefer Critical Defense for short-barreled pistols, or has HST pretty much taken over your carry load?
 
I carried Critical Defense for a while mainly because of its reliability in my compact Glock, but after seeing some gel tests, I switched to 124gr HST. The balance between penetration and expansion feels more reassuring for me.
Anyone here still prefer Critical Defense for short-barreled pistols, or has HST pretty much taken over your carry load?
I’ve gone Critical Duty in 9, .40, and 10. It runs well with my P10C, HCP, G23, and both M&P’s.
 
HST’s are known to be great! My real world preference is Speer Gold Dots from shooting deer with them in .40 caliber. I have seen them go through both shoulders on big deer out to 30 yards. My thoughts are if they can go through two pieces of deer hide and some bone I can trust them through thick clothes. Speer bonds the jacket to the lead core, not sure about the HST. The SIG ammo looks great in YouTube testing but lacks the jacket bonding process. Attached is a photo from last year deer kill with Speer in .40 S&W. It’s a free country, have fun testing and researching! Good luck!View attachment 2458
That’s some solid firsthand experience real-world tissue and bone tests often tell you more than gel blocks. You’re right about Speer Gold Dot being bonded, while HST is not. Federal designed the HST jacket profile and skiving to resist separation even without bonding, and in gel tests they usually stay together, but bonding does give Gold Dots a toughness edge on barrier shots. Out of curiosity, have you noticed much difference in expansion consistency between the two when shooting through deer vs. what you see in gel demos?
 
I believe your YouTube education is essential to a Harvard or Yale! I also would love to use your education for some help. Is it possible for a Hornady critical defense. 25 cal 35 grain round to create a hole in a sheet of metal that is about an inch in diameter but it seriously looks like a rounded triangle. Could that happen?
It’s possible, though not in the way most people picture. A .25 ACP 35-grain Critical Defense round doesn’t carry a lot of energy, so it’s unlikely to punch a clean one-inch hole in steel. What can happen is:
  • Soft or thin sheet metal (like ducting, siding, or very thin mild steel) can tear rather than shear cleanly.
  • When the bullet and jacket deform, the hole may take on an odd “triangular” or jagged shape instead of a perfect circle.
  • The hole can appear larger than caliber because of tearing, spalling, or bending around the impact.
So yes — it could look like a rounded triangle if the sheet was thin enough and the material fractured irregularly.
 
an old thread, but i have said in the past, i use Federal HST
That “rounded triangle” look makes sense if the sheet metal was thin and tore rather than sheared. The .25 ACP just doesn’t have the mass or velocity to punch a clean hole in anything but light material. Instead you get tearing, deformation of the jacket, and sometimes even a flap of metal peeled back that makes the hole look way bigger than the round itself.

Federal HST (and similar premium loads) behave differently because they’re designed to expand in soft targets rather than tear through hard barriers. On thin steel you’d still get weird shapes, but on actual defensive mediums they’re much more consistent than the little .25s.

Out of curiosity, was the sheet you were testing closer to duct metal or more like mild steel? That makes a huge difference in how the hole forms.
 
That “rounded triangle” look makes sense if the sheet metal was thin and tore rather than sheared. The .25 ACP just doesn’t have the mass or velocity to punch a clean hole in anything but light material. Instead you get tearing, deformation of the jacket, and sometimes even a flap of metal peeled back that makes the hole look way bigger than the round itself.

Federal HST (and similar premium loads) behave differently because they’re designed to expand in soft targets rather than tear through hard barriers. On thin steel you’d still get weird shapes, but on actual defensive mediums they’re much more consistent than the little .25s.

Out of curiosity, was the sheet you were testing closer to duct metal or more like mild steel? That makes a huge difference in how the hole forms.
was i testing...??? was i testing...??? like i got the frickin' time to test..????

i do not test, i gather information from different sources. there are way too many self defensive rounds. to choose from, and i went with the "general consensus" of what i read and got advice from local gun stores, NRA instructors, and even from..yes...a few local police officers i am "acquainted with", thru either my club who are members, or the public range, who go there for thier practice...

if you wish to decypher every little detail on guns, ammo, ballistics, blah, blah, blah...then you do so.

i ain't got no time to play "Mr. Rocket Scientist"....
 
Carried gold dot for years HST was marginally better carry 147 HST. Have had to put down a few injured animals and it does well.
 
Not trying to be mean or pick a fight! I was genuinely curious as to rather or not you were making a joke. Assuming you're being serious and not just trying to "troll" folks like myself, my objections to the practice you were endorsing are as follows:

1. Point of Impact Shift: Different barrels and rifling patterns perform better with different bullet types, powders and overall lengths. While it might be a small difference going from 115 grain in one hollow point design with one powder to another, you are tolerance stacking by running multiple brands, bullet weights and configurations. This is maximizing your group spread from a mechanical accuracy point of view. That is irrespective of the shooter. You can lock the gun in a rest and see this effect.

Generally speaking, and this is very broad and weapon/shooter dependent, less recoil lowers POI, more recoil raises POI, within a given given bullet weight. Since bullet weight impacts recoil and slide energy, changing bullet weights from shot to shot exacerbates the effect. POI shift is also velocity dependent, so adding different burn rates of various powders with different bullet weights means you will be as inaccurate as mechanically possible in a given firearm.

2. Training: Irrespective of accuracy, changing the bullet weights and powders inside the magazine will result in every shot feeling different from the last. Consistent feedback is an important part of the muscle memory utilized in recoil control and learning how to drive a gun quickly from shot to shot and target to target. If your recoil impulse changes dramatically from shot to shot, you are making it more difficult to bring the gun back on target as quickly as possible in a given string. Its very difficult to find a shooting rhythm and ride the recoil if the recoil of the gun changes every shot.

3. Malfunction Inducement: By running your guns slide at different speeds and with different bullet shapes and different OAL in bullets, you are maximizing the situation where even a reliable handgun can choke up in feeding. Remember the shooter will also be giving different feedback to the gun with your grip via each shots recoil being different.

4. Gun Wu Wu: This last one is pretty unscientific, but I think most people who have shot one gun a lot will know where I am coming from. When you get used to one load and one firearm, you can "listen to the gun talk" during strings of fire. You don't need to see that you have fired your last shot, you feel the slide lock open. You know its getting time to clean it when the gun "tells" you its getting crunchy. You know immediately if you had a squib or some other issue because that shot felt different that the thousand or so before it. I know not everyone carries the same gun on duty day in and day out, or shoots tens of thousands of rounds a year in competition, but I don't know why you would rob yourself of the change to learn your guns "feel" by making it feel different every shot.
That’s a really solid breakdown—you hit on the three things I’ve seen most often when people try to mix ammo: POI shift, rhythm disruption, and occasional feed hiccups. I think your “gun wu wu” point is actually spot on too when all your reps are with one consistent load, the feedback loop between shooter and gun feels much tighter.

Out of curiosity, do you think Critical Defense vs HST differences in recoil impulse are significant enough for most shooters to feel the shift in a string, or is it mostly theoretical unless you’re really pushing speed?

I recently came across this article comparing red dot vs iron sight zeroing differences different topic, but the way it explains how even small shifts stack into noticeable performance gaps really reminded me of your point here.
 
I would recommend staying away from 115 grain unless you have availability issues. The one exception is the 115 Gold Dots can run with the 224 grain. Any124 Gold Dot or HST (and plus P or standard doesn’t matter other than some folks just have to have it)

124 grain is good in about every barrel length where 135 Critical Dury and 147 is a little better suited for 4” of longer.

Liok at what actual street results are with Departments. Several carry 124 or 157 Gold Dits HER and 145 Critical Duty and are dunking felons for good every day.

Also I’d stay away from about 90% of YouTube for getting a kick in what’s best. Most while they try are low information armatures and have zero clue what they are doing. You can not base a go/bo go on one round in the bell and what it does you need a test where they shokt about 5 rounds. Example the Border Patrol. Naval surface warfare and LAPD run 147 Gold Dots G2 l. One tester shot one round and it didn’t work I. His gel which isn’t a lab controlled test and he totally dismissed that round.
LAPD, Border Oateil and Seals are using that round and killing oriole all iver a few times each week but to believe that test on YouTube with one round doesn’t prove anything.
 
Greetings. My EDC pistol is an XD S mod 1. I've always used Hornady, but am interested in trying the HST. Comments and/or suggestions? Good shooting to all!
There's a whole lot of ammo out there and naturally they all claim to be the best. Over many years I have seen a lot of different brands and there claims and the search will always be on. I don't use or load +P and when I did a lot of reloading with my Dillion I always loaded 10 percent below max. In my 1911 I always used 200gr 45 both ball and hollow points. My duty revolver was a S&W moder 19 and on calls for assistant inside the city limits we had to change out to 38spl which was a pain especially if it was a code run. Most have a pick of what they think is best and the choices are amazing, I have a couple of 9s which I call backups and my wife can handle those but she still prefers her 38spl. I have been using Silvertip Nosler in both 9s and 45. IMO the best ammo you can buy is the one that you can control and placement by you that is the best ammo of all but as I said IMO.
 
I don't think it matters one bit between the two, e.i., Critical Defense and HST. People seem to over analyze and make mountains out of any hills over every teeny tiny minute detail. Buy whichever is on sale, readily available, and shoots the best out of your particular gun...

That said, I prioritize penetration through barriers overall. It's bonded expanding bullets if the price is right or hardcast for me. I use 40 S&W 180 gr. Speer Gold Dot in my Kahr K40 that I carry simply because it's good with defeating intermediate barriers, has a nickel-plated case, and I can get a box of 50 for ~$25. Outside of that, I carry Underwood 158 gr. hardcast 38 Special whenever I EDC revolvers, and Underwood 147 gr. hardcast 9mm whenever I carry 9mm.
 
I don't think it matters one bit between the two, e.i., Critical Defense and HST. People seem to over analyze and make mountains out of any hills over every teeny tiny minute detail. Buy whichever is on sale, readily available, and shoots the best out of your particular gun...

That said, I prioritize penetration through barriers overall. It's bonded expanding bullets if the price is right or hardcast for me. I use 40 S&W 180 gr. Speer Gold Dot in my Kahr K40 that I carry simply because it's good with defeating intermediate barriers, has a nickel-plated case, and I can get a box of 50 for ~$25. Outside of that, I carry Underwood 158 gr. hardcast 38 Special whenever I EDC revolvers, and Underwood 147 gr. hardcast 9mm whenever I carry 9mm.
The critical defenyhas proven to NOT be a good penitrartie in 9mm as most every 115. While old school 115 like Fedwral 9BPLE at 1,300 makes up for that with speed and acts like a 357 and 115 Gold Dot runs with the 124 any other 115 is while better than nothing not the same as 124-147 in 9mm.

Why most (HST Critical Duty etc ) don’t offer 115 version and if the do it’s almost never found these days.
 
I carry a 10mm and it has either HST, Punch or Browning X-points. My little XDM-Elite 3.8 just loves the Browning X-points. It's a shame they're not made anymore. I loaded up while they were in production.
 
Not trying to be mean or pick a fight! I was genuinely curious as to rather or not you were making a joke. Assuming you're being serious and not just trying to "troll" folks like myself, my objections to the practice you were endorsing are as follows:

1. Point of Impact Shift: Different barrels and rifling patterns perform better with different bullet types, powders and overall lengths. While it might be a small difference going from 115 grain in one hollow point design with one powder to another, you are tolerance stacking by running multiple brands, bullet weights and configurations. This is maximizing your group spread from a mechanical accuracy point of view. That is irrespective of the shooter. You can lock the gun in a rest and see this effect.

Generally speaking, and this is very broad and weapon/shooter dependent, less recoil lowers POI, more recoil raises POI, within a given given bullet weight. Since bullet weight impacts recoil and slide energy, changing bullet weights from shot to shot exacerbates the effect. POI shift is also velocity dependent, so adding different burn rates of various powders with different bullet weights means you will be as inaccurate as mechanically possible in a given firearm.

2. Training: Irrespective of accuracy, changing the bullet weights and powders inside the magazine will result in every shot feeling different from the last. Consistent feedback is an important part of the muscle memory utilized in recoil control and learning how to drive a gun quickly from shot to shot and target to target. If your recoil impulse changes dramatically from shot to shot, you are making it more difficult to bring the gun back on target as quickly as possible in a given string. Its very difficult to find a shooting rhythm and ride the recoil if the recoil of the gun changes every shot.

3. Malfunction Inducement: By running your guns slide at different speeds and with different bullet shapes and different OAL in bullets, you are maximizing the situation where even a reliable handgun can choke up in feeding. Remember the shooter will also be giving different feedback to the gun with your grip via each shots recoil being different.

4. Gun Wu Wu: This last one is pretty unscientific, but I think most people who have shot one gun a lot will know where I am coming from. When you get used to one load and one firearm, you can "listen to the gun talk" during strings of fire. You don't need to see that you have fired your last shot, you feel the slide lock open. You know its getting time to clean it when the gun "tells" you its getting crunchy. You know immediately if you had a squib or some other issue because that shot felt different that the thousand or so before it. I know not everyone carries the same gun on duty day in and day out, or shoots tens of thousands of rounds a year in competition, but I don't know why you would rob yourself of the change to learn your guns "feel" by making it feel different every shot.
Really solid points here, and I appreciate you taking the time to lay them out so clearly. POI shift, inconsistent recoil impulse, and potential feeding issues are all very real considerations when mixing loads. Even for folks who don’t shoot thousands of rounds a year, consistency builds confidence and makes diagnostics much easier.

I’ve found the same principle applies when people start adding optics or changing sighting systems — the more variables you introduce, the more important it is to train with one consistent setup until it’s second nature. For anyone curious about optics and how to dial them in properly, this guide on red dot pistol sight covers zeroing and training considerations for carry pistols.

Out of curiosity, do you stick with one load for both training and carry, or do you verify POI with your carry ammo separately? I’ve seen folks do both.
 
I have two boxes of Critical Defense. One for each handgun.
Never shoot them. They are for home defense. That way the commie state cant say I over kilt them with home made rounds.

So once again Im bias, dont do a lot with handguns.
 
I have two boxes of Critical Defense. One for each handgun.
Never shoot them. They are for home defense. That way the commie state cant say I over kilt them with home made rounds.

So once again Im bias, dont do a lot with handguns.
That doesn’t sound very smart.

If you’ve never shot them, how do you know your guns run them?
 
I believe that most defensive ammo these days is pretty much equal. I try several and go with the one that shoots best in my gun.
I tend to agree, at least as far as “top shelf” ammo varieties—eg, HST, Ranger-T (aka Defender), Gold Dot, Golden Saber/Ultimate Defense, Crit Duty, XTP…

But…there are a lot of JHP’s that aren’t going to expand, and might as well be ball (Magtech, S&B, PPU…a lot of foreign JHP’s).

I’ll just mention the Lucky Gunner tests one more time; it does give useful information.
 
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