Ayoob: Will Carrying a 10mm Hang You in Court?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Agree. In states with strong Castle Doctrine and freer carry laws, this may be easier to do than in states such as Illinois and California.
There may be many calls all at once from people who did or didn't see the whole thing go down. Neighbors calling saying they heard yelling and loud gunshots but didn't actually *see* anything...people walking down the street who only saw a weapon being fired and someone going down...maybe even the perp calling 911 saying some crazy asshole shot him and his dogs while he was out for a hike.
OldGrunt
Professional
I would think that the shooter who was defending themself should be one of those making the 911 call. Identify yourself and state that you feared for your life and had to defend yourself. Request police and an ambulance be sent right away. The operator will probably tell you to stay on the line. I would re-holster my gun, assuming the scene is safe. I would only answer or give only relevant information to the operator. Stay on the line but tell the operator you will wait for the police to show up before giving any kind of statement. And of course, don't do anything stupid or make any kind of threatening moves around the police when they show up. Let them disarm you if that is what they want to do. I'm glad I live in the Republic of Texas and don't have to fear the consequences of legally defending myself, unlike some of you that have to live in communist states.
Anchorite
Custom
Good for the tee-totlers on a jury.
Anchorite
Custom
I would never rely on those firms that are connected with such coverage. They are not locals, don't know the locals, and don't know the lay of the land.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I use Ground News and occasionally follow things up reading official documentation. I actually read up on cases when voting for judges as well.
PieterCoetzee
Custom
NOT true. At best the original caller is the complainant. I have had suspects call numerous times and sometimes the victim is busy calling his attorney before 911 (you can bet that goes in the report, too)
Old_Me
Emissary
well, i'll go by what Mas Ayoob and others have said, regarding who the victim is.....
even my yearly membership card from the USCCA TELLS US TO CALL 911 FIRST......!
so thank you very much, you ain't a lawyer...are you..????...no but a retired cop. so you really don't clearly KNOW IT ALL especially from the views of the legalities and from the actual EXPERTS.
After the Attack
- Call 911: Provide your location, description of the shooter (height, clothes, weapons), and if anyone is injured.
- Stay Safe: Wait for law enforcement to secure the scene and confirm it's safe before moving or leaving.
- Preserve Evidence: Avoid touching anything that could have fingerprints or DNA.
- Get Medical Help: Even if injuries seem minor, get checked by a doctor, as some wounds aren't immediately obvious.
- Contact Police: Get the officer's business card and crime report number; call back with more details as you remember them.
PieterCoetzee
Custom
Brother you should always do what you think is best, especially if youre paying USCCA for it. I can only suggest how things work from the PD and prosecutorial perspective
D
Deleted member
Guest
Having a USCCA membership would probably be a field day for the prosecution that they’re bloodthirsty and looking to murder someone and get away with it… That and it’s a scam, I have heard that they rarely defend their clients. You’d be better off getting a prepaid legal services subscriptions that has a wide breadth for at least plausible deniability on the reason why you have it. This is why the sheriff’s department offering classes should be a part of getting a concealed carry permit, so you’d know the law, and that you would be informed by those who enforce it, rather than a weenie lawyer in some other state who isn’t familiar with the jurisdiction. I wish my sheriff’s department offered a class, even optional for CCW…
Old_Me
Emissary
USCCA sent me a list of criminal lawyers in my state, that they will pay for....what YOU NEED to understand is that if YOU break or broke the law in any way, then the USCCA can deny the fee's for the lawyer you chose. (at least 2 as far as i can recall, are pro 2A lawyers. )
now for instance, did you shoot the person outside your home, or inside your home..???
that makes a difference if you broke the law, shooting that person OUTSIDE your home.
was it a legally owned gun?? a ghost gun..??
are you even able to own a gun..??
an investigation into EACH persons use of force will be done, they don't just blatantly refuse to pay the lawyer.
it is not the USCCA in of itself, that is defending you, its the lawyer that is, getting paid by them.
so please make sure you got your facts straight.
========================================================================================
The USCCA (United States Concealed Carry Association) can refuse to defend you if the shooting isn't deemed a legitimate act of self-defense, if your actions were disproportionate, or if the incident falls under policy exclusions, like being a criminal act rather than self-defense; coverage isn't guaranteed if a court finds you weren't acting in self-defense, potentially leading to denied legal help and even having to repay costs, despite being an association providing insurance for these scenarios.
Key Reasons for Denial or Refusal
- Not a True Self-Defense Act: The core issue is proving your actions were a justified response to imminent harm, not an offensive act or unnecessary force.
- Criminal Act Exclusion: If the shooting is determined to be criminal, coverage is typically denied because the policy is for self-defense, not covering crimes.
- Disproportionate Force: Using more force than reasonably necessary to stop the threat can negate self-defense claims and coverage.
- Policy Exclusions & Conditions: Like any insurance, there are specific exclusions; for example, if you're found guilty, you might have to repay funds used for your defense.
- Attorney Disagreements: If your chosen attorney's strategy or hourly rates conflict with the USCCA's requirements, they might not cover that lawyer.
- No Coverage for Criminal Acts: The USCCA's insurance (provided through partners) covers self-defense, not criminal charges, which means if you're found guilty of a crime, you lose coverage and may owe money back.
- Recoupment Clauses: You could be required to pay back legal expenses if you're convicted or if the incident isn't ruled as self-defense.
- Insurance vs. Membership: The USCCA provides a membership that includes access to self-defense liability insurance, but it's still governed by insurance contract terms and exclusions.
- State Variations: Laws and specific policy applications can vary by state, with some states having different self-defense legal frameworks.
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MN.Militia
Professional
I love my 10MM. In fact, I'm wearing it on my side as I type!
Anchorite
Custom
You’d be better off spending a few hundred dollars and go sit with a local criminal defense lawyer and discuss things than join this USCCA bunch, IMO.USCCA sent me a list of criminal lawyers in my state, that they will pay for....what YOU NEED to understand is that if YOU break or broke the law in any way, then the USCCA can deny the fee's for the lawyer you chose. (at least 2 as far as i can recall, are pro 2A lawyers. )
now for instance, did you shoot the person outside your home, or inside your home..???
that makes a difference if you broke the law, shooting that person OUTSIDE your home.
was it a legally owned gun?? a ghost gun..??
are you even able to own a gun..??
an investigation into EACH persons use of force will be done, they don't just blatantly refuse to pay the lawyer.
it is not the USCCA in of itself, that is defending you, its the lawyer that is, getting paid by them.
so please make sure you got your facts straight.
========================================================================================
The USCCA (United States Concealed Carry Association) can refuse to defend you if the shooting isn't deemed a legitimate act of self-defense, if your actions were disproportionate, or if the incident falls under policy exclusions, like being a criminal act rather than self-defense; coverage isn't guaranteed if a court finds you weren't acting in self-defense, potentially leading to denied legal help and even having to repay costs, despite being an association providing insurance for these scenarios.
Key Reasons for Denial or Refusal
What Happens If You're Charged?
- Not a True Self-Defense Act: The core issue is proving your actions were a justified response to imminent harm, not an offensive act or unnecessary force.
- Criminal Act Exclusion: If the shooting is determined to be criminal, coverage is typically denied because the policy is for self-defense, not covering crimes.
- Disproportionate Force: Using more force than reasonably necessary to stop the threat can negate self-defense claims and coverage.
- Policy Exclusions & Conditions: Like any insurance, there are specific exclusions; for example, if you're found guilty, you might have to repay funds used for your defense.
- Attorney Disagreements: If your chosen attorney's strategy or hourly rates conflict with the USCCA's requirements, they might not cover that lawyer.
Important Considerations
- No Coverage for Criminal Acts: The USCCA's insurance (provided through partners) covers self-defense, not criminal charges, which means if you're found guilty of a crime, you lose coverage and may owe money back.
- Recoupment Clauses: You could be required to pay back legal expenses if you're convicted or if the incident isn't ruled as self-defense.
- Insurance vs. Membership: The USCCA provides a membership that includes access to self-defense liability insurance, but it's still governed by insurance contract terms and exclusions.
- State Variations: Laws and specific policy applications can vary by state, with some states having different self-defense legal frameworks.
Old_Me
Emissary
i disagree, whole heartedly.
PieterCoetzee
Custom
Does USCCA pay for the attorney if youre found guilty? I seem to recall they only paid if you were NOT guilty; but it could be my confusion about the things they disqualify? I recall looking into them and liked US Law Shield better but that was a long time ago
Old_Me
Emissary
no, if the policy holder did anything wrong, and gets charged, then the policy holder has to pay back any monies spent.
to me, all are insurance companies, (in a way)...you pay and hope you don't need it, like any other insurance coverages we MUST have for various things in our lives.
It all comes down to how the report was written. As a cop, I always tried to get the details down, as I was taught in 1971. The initial report can either exonerate or convict someone, i.e., That SOB deserved to die…As I had an adverse reaction to criminals, I always tried to get the shooter to articulate their fears as to why they dropped the hammer (nowadays the striker).
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