PieterCoetzee
Elite
Exactly
What Do We Think of the Hellion in 2026?
- Thread starter Lab4Us
- Start date
Lab4Us
Professional
Was it malfunctions (if so, what type) or you just didn’t care for the Hellion manual of arms?
KillerFord1977
Emissary
Can you rent a hellion anywhere ?
Some ranges here have them in N Tex
Lab4Us
Professional
I’ll have to check when I hit range next week. They’re a Springfield dealer, so maybe. Not investing in anything until after SHOT anyways
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TurboDog910
Master Class
There are gunsmiths out there that can remove your pin and welded muzzle device and replace it with one that can accept your suppressor.
Do your research , you want someone that knows what the hell they are doing.
USMC6094
Professional
It wasn't malfunctions, it was manual of arms, ergonomics, and its AWFUL trigger.....
First, manual of arms..........
Unless you dumped a magazine, or had an empty mag in the mag well, you CANNOT lock the bolt to the rear. And from match shooting experience, that's bad joo-joo.......
Second, ergonomics, the thing has the LOP of a giant, not to mention the height above bore sights.......
And LAST, the trigger, never broke the same way twice...........
One range trip, and I was convinced I'd wasted my time, ammo, and money.
Lab4Us
Professional
Thanks, that input is very helpful!
WellArmed
Custom
IMHO, pin and welded isn't worth the squeeze. It'susually a 13.7", 13.9", or 14.5" barrel with a super long muzzle device pinned and welded to reach just over 16".
- The muzzle device is appropriately between ~3", which looks retarded to me.
- The muzzle device often must be the same diameter of the barrel so that gas blocks can be taken on and off.
- Yes, you can cut the tack/weld, but that often damages the brake and the barrel.
- If purchased with or originally configured with a pin/weld that's 16" or more, it can never be in pistol configuration. Matter of fact, you must even pull the rail/handguard and barrel off of the upper receiver BEFORE breaking a pin/weld, else you'll be in possession of an unregistered SBR.
Compared to a normal 16" with a normal sized muzzle brake, there's not even much of a difference to add any real benefits, IMHO.
WellArmed
Custom
If you want to use a suppressor, then you must buy a proprietary muzzle device that the suppressor will directly mount to. You also have to find one that will allow you to get the gas block on and off. Then you're stuck with and limited to using suppressors will directly mount to that muzzle device. If you plan on going the NFA route to use a suppressor, you might as well just SBR the receiver and be done with all the tiring, PITA workarounds. Just e-file for an SBR and be legal in a week or so.
It seems overwhelming at first because it's something new and you're mostly ignorant to everything. It's ridiculously easy, fast, and simple to do once you figure out the process.
Don't buy an factory SBR. Buy an AR or whatever platform you want to go with as a pistol with a pistol brace. You can simply add a real stock once approved. You can Form 1 SBR under a Trust, and add your grandson. You can also simply take off the stock or add an 16" upper to give your firearm to your grandson.
A registered NFA firearm only falls under NFA rules and regulations when it's in NFA confirmation. That is, once you take the stock off an SBR that was previously a pistol, it instantly morphs back into a none NFA firearm even if it's still registered. Once you add a 16" barrel or upper SBR, it instantly morphs back into a none NFA regular rifle even if it's still registered. You can sell it, gift it, travel out of state, etc. just like you could any other pistol or rifle. No need to contact or notify the ATF about anything.
I Form 1'd several of my AR pistols as an SBR. I can convert all of them back to a pistol by removing the stock or just put an 16" upper receiver on them. Then I can sell them off to whomever without every having to notify the ATF or unregistering any of them because there's no legal requirements that I do so. In essence, just like with 4473 background check forms, the government/ATF never truly knows what people have when it comes to SBR and SBS because they can legally be sold or gifted without notifying anyone or updating records.
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KillerFord1977
Emissary
I didnt know you could sell an nfa registered sbr lower ? Hmm ..
WellArmed
Custom
Yes, you can. You just need to take the lower out of NFA configuration first.
If the lower started life out as a SBR and was always an SBR:
- It can be sold as an SBR via selling it to a purchaser who was approved via a Form 4 transfer.
- You can install a 16" barrel to take it out of SBR configuration making it a regular rifle that can be sold and will legally be treated as such without dealing with or notifying the ATF.
- You can simply take the >16" upper receiver off to sell it as an unbarred lower receiver, which takes it out of SBR configuration. That will make it a regular rifle lower that can be sold and will legally be treated as such without dealing with or notifying the ATF.
If the lower started life out as a regular non NFA rifle:
- It can be sold as an SBR via selling it to a purchaser who was approved via a Form 4 transfer.
- You can sell it by adding a 16" upper so that it's no longer an SBR.
- Sell it as a rifle lower without the short barrel'd pistol upper.
If the lower started life out as a regular non NFA pistol:
- It can be sold as an SBR via selling it to a purchaser who was approved via a Form 4 transfer.
- You can sell by adding a 16" upper so that it's no longer an SBR.
- Because it started life out as a pistol, it will always be a SBR if the lower has a stock installed even if you take upper off. To sell it and to take it out of NFA configuration, you simply need to remove the stock.
[EDIT]
The only real benefit of buying a factory SBR is that it doesn't need to be engraved. Other than that, the $200 tax is gone. The requirements to notify your local CLO has been removed and should go into effect soon. Wait times are unprecedentedly low. You can conveniently apply online in minutes instead of using snail-mail. Finger prints can be uploaded using an EFT (electric fingerprint) file that can be reused indefinitely* for all future applications. The only PITA that still exists, for now, is the engraving requirement.
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WellArmed
Custom
I misspoke and had a blonde moment here. You can sell a lower, that was started life out as a pistol, with a regular stock attacked just as long as the pistol/SBR upper isn't attached.
KillerFord1977
Emissary
You have to remove from the NFA registration. We had someone sell an sbr to the store I contract for (that the customer made it back into a pistol), we sold it to another customer who decided to SBR it. The original owner got an ATF visit, the store got an ATF visit and the sbr was taken into custody. The problem is that tax was owed transferring to the gunstore and even now individual to ffl with sot still requires a paper form 4 and approval. Then the tax was owed when transferred from the store to the new owner. Even now in eforms every nfa item is tracked and has to be in your inventory before you can transfer eforms to new individual. You must inform the ATF that you are permanently removing from NFA status. That serial number is assigned to your social security number or EIN forever until it’s approved for transfer. Thats how you can look up you personal inventory in eforms to get the original transaction number to transfer.
Don’t believe me, go in your eforms and start a form 4, then say you are transferring to another individual. Then under add firearm use the lookup firearm via social security number. Click look up inventory and you get a dropdown of every nfa item model approved to you. Pick the model you are transferring (like your lower) and verify the serial. You will see it is very much still assigned to you and someone else illegally is in possession.
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Talyn
Emissary
A pinned & welded 14.7" barrel + regular A2 FH, or a 14.5 + those slightly extended (2") A2s meets the legal limit without looking weird, but gives you a noticeably nice OAL & look, especially with a mid-length gas system.
USMC6094
Professional
Remember what opinions are like fellas......
My first NO BAN AR was a Bushmaster 14.5 barreled upper with a Phantom brake pinned and welded..........
Wish I still had it..................
Currently, I have a no forward assist Poverty Pony carbine sporting a Colt M4 barrel with a BCM extended A2 compensator pinned and welded to make it legal..........
Looks just fine to me........
It's the 16 inch "M4" barreled uppers that look odd.
Jeeze, get over yourself....
My first NO BAN AR was a Bushmaster 14.5 barreled upper with a Phantom brake pinned and welded..........
Wish I still had it..................
Currently, I have a no forward assist Poverty Pony carbine sporting a Colt M4 barrel with a BCM extended A2 compensator pinned and welded to make it legal..........
Looks just fine to me........
It's the 16 inch "M4" barreled uppers that look odd.
Jeeze, get over yourself....
WellArmed
Custom
No, you do not. There is no law or regulations that require it or that you can cite. It's optional, and many people do not. There are people who have gotten visited by the ATF when they purchased multiple firearms at once, but that doesn't mean that purchasing several firearms at once is illegal. It doesn't mean that the ATF knocks on everyone's door who does because they do not in the vast majority of cases.
The ATF might have assumed that the AR pistol you took into inventory at a LGS was still in SBR configuration, but as long as it wasn't when transferred to the FFL, no tax is owed. This is common knowledge. This can be verified by contacting the ATF themselves or by reading the text of the law.
WellArmed
Custom
What you fail to understand that as long as it's NOT in NFA confirmation, it's NOT an SBR even if it's still registered. You need only return the SBR/SBS back to Title 1 confirmation. Someone else who is legally allowed to own and possess the pistol or rifle is NOT illegally in possession of the registered SBR if it's NOT a SBR at the time. They are in possession of a Title 1 pistol, rifle, or shotgun. Go do your research because you're spreading misinformation.
The person who purchased a previously and still registered SBR as a non NFA pistol or rifle should fill out a form 1 because they would be the new maker of a SBR.
This is a registered SBR. The pistol is registered. The pistol is only a SBR subjected to SBR laws when the stock is attached. You remove the stock, it's legally just an non-NFA title 1 SIG P320 handgun. No, your friends, family, or anyone you sell it to would NOT be in possession of an illegal SBR because it's not legally a SBR nor does it fit the legal definition of an SBR regardless of it being registered. The P320 in the photo is legally no different than an AR15 pistol.
Removing the firearm from the registry is best practice, but not legally required. Many don't bother. Research: "turning SBR to Title 1 firearm." There are people who have emailed the ATF about this. There are ATF letters about this published online. Then there's the text of the NFA law.
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You are wrong, once that firearm is an NFA item, it is linked to your social. Like I said anyone can fact check me by logging into their own eforms account and try a pretend transfer. So unless you remove it from the registry or transfer via form 4 or 5 depending on circumstances that firearm is still linked to you as an NFA item. Don't tell me I am spreading misinformation when I told anyone who to fact check me. But what do I know, I’m just an 07/02 thats been dealing with NFA for 20 plus years. i just had to deal with this 4 different times this year of free tax stamps buying SBR’s from individuals, right now they can not be e-formed to an SOT it’s paper only. The solution remove it from the registry, then transfer and then I make it back to an SBR on form 2, now I can sell on eforms once again to anyone.
Once an NFA item is linked to you, it is for life and even after death. Your family and the estate will have to deal with it eventually. It either must be removed from the registry or transferred or destroyed. If you sell that firearm as a title 1 to someone else and they try to make it an NFA item they can not because it was not legally transferred or removed from the registry in the first place. Like I said it is easy enough to verify in eforms. If anyone has ever form 1 something, it is in your inventory. Riddle me this. If an item is in your personal inventory, then how do you remove it from your personal inventory? Then if someone else buys said firearm how do they add it to their inventory? You go through all that effort for an NFA tax stamp, that item is listed as an NFA item forever unless you tell the government or get approval for transfer. That tax stamp does not just magically disappear because you remove the stock.
Removing an SBR/SBS from the NFRTR and Selling / Reregistering the SBR
If you plan on selling your SBR/SBS you might have thought about removing the SBR/SBS from the ATF NFRTR (National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record), which is the central registry of all restricted weapons, before you do so. This would mean that you can no longer use that firearm in a...
www.nationalguntrusts.com
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