Is there really that much difference

[Biggfoot44]

Well I guess Im intentionally vague; but simply, bullet (hollow point) performance has greatly improved since as few as maybe 10 years ago and certainly since the 90s and that was an improvement over the 80s

Well, Yes & Not So Much .

Yes , the big strides are in penetrating cars And subsequently somewhat performing . But this is more of an important thing for *some* but not all LE . Usually not common for General Public self defense.

For Interpersonal Defense , the better of the back in the medium day loads were pretty good . ( I know l'd still be comfortable carrying my prefered loads from late '80s / early '90s .)

What has changed is that back then ,some were good ,some sucked . Nowadays, few ( major brand Duty / premium SD ) are terrible.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The very first 2-3 shots are without question the most important ones,

True . I'll even go farther , that the absolute most important, is the first solid hit of the engagement. For that may well be only one .

The rest of the inferences & conclusions , l will diverge.

 

[JackobLone5]

For me it comes down to capacity and comfort. Carrying something like a 17 with more rounds just feels more forgiving, but I never feel underarmed with a 1911 either - it’s just a different tradeoff.


Your spare mag analogy is spot on too. It’s less about running out of ammo and more about having a backup if something goes wrong.

 

[Winchester67]

I am 5 foot five and carry a 1911 Government Model or a Browning Hi Power. Not hard with an inside the waistband holster. Anything else is going to telegraph you are armed, except perhaps if you wear a shoulder rig and a coat. If you can't get used to inside the waistband carry, you are limiting yourself to only carrying less effective defensive armament. I don't carry a spare magazine for the additional ammunition, I carry it because a reload is generally the fastest way to get back into the fight if your weapon jams. For the same reason, I carry 7 round mags. They are the most reliable platform for the 1911, and reliability is the single most important factor in a sidearm.

Additional ammo is rarely needed in a defensive scenario. Generally speaking, one runs out TIME before running their sidearm dry.

Notice how this Milt Sparks rig has "wings" to secure it to your belt. That thins out the profile. Also note there is no reinforcing lip to aid in re-holstering. This means it might take two hands to reinsert the pistol. Not an issue on a defensive pistol. If the pistol comes out, it is staying out until the police arrive. I am not law enforcement so I will not be re-holstering to secure a suspect. This makes the holster thinner, thus easier to hide. Do not bet your life on a cheap clip on holster that places the clip in the middle of the holster, the worst place to have it because it adds width.

 

[KBlessing]

For comparison, I have a .40cal which was my first gun given to me, but I still went with 9mm because with today's technology in how they're making defensive ammo there's really hardly any difference between the two.

The other reason is cost, 9mm is a lot cheaper to get. Which means I get more range time and more practice.

If I don't keep up practice, why carry?

 

[The Night Rider]

Twice

Ummmm, no.

If you're talking about the War of 1812 that ended in a stalemate at best and tripled America's national debt

 

[The Night Rider]

Anything else is going to telegraph you are armed,

That's news to me.

I say this every time this topic comes up. I even use the same picture. Wrangler cargo pants and a camp shirt. In the winter I wear Wrangler cargo pants and a flannel shirt.

You can throw a rock in Colorado Springs (even more so out here on the Eastern Plains) and you're going to hit a middle-aged white guy with a military haircut dressed just like me.


Actually out here you're more likely to hit Brutus or one of his relatives.

If you can't get used to inside the waistband carry, you are limiting yourself to only carrying less effective defensive armament.

You sure about that?

 

[Winchester67]

Yep, I'm sure. When you are moving and the wind is blowing a guy that is looking for a gun will see a gun. My friends and I spot "concealed" carry guys all the time here in Columbia, a college town where cargo pants and baggy shirts are normal. First guy to spot a person that is heeled does not pay for his lunch.

 

[Winchester67]

PS-Well done carrying a serious firearm! Most will never notice, and you have a nice tight holster and strong belt. But I still think you will be "made" if someone is closely watching.

 

[The Night Rider]

Yep, I'm sure. When you are moving and the wind is blowing a guy that is looking for a gun will see a gun. My friends and I spot "concealed" carry guys all the time here in Columbia, a college town where cargo pants and baggy shirts are normal. First guy to spot a person that is heeled does not pay for his lunch.

What are these "people" you speak of?

Before I say this, I understand you should never aim for the lowest common denominator.

I don't so much go out looking for people who are carrying guns but I do tend to notice it. And it's really not all that often that I see somebody carrying a gun unless they're open carrying.

Most people don't do that. Most people don't even consider that somebody around that might be carrying a gun.

I've told this story before, I was at work one night and as I was walking through the parking lot of Parks and Rec I got surrounded by CSPD.

I mean that in the most literal sense. Four or five cops showed up they were standing in a circle around me. The head cop told me that they were there responding to a MWAG call. I was wearing a security uniform. They knew it wasn't me. The head cop asked me if I'd seen anybody and then he asked me if I was armed. They were standing in a circle around me. I watched the cop on my right look down at my hip and that's the first time they ever realized I wasn't carrying a gun on that assignment.

These were cops answering a call about a man with a gun and none of them thought to look and see if I was armed.

Another story short as I can make it. I went to the DMV to renew my license. The DMV would not accept my old license as ID (that raises its own questions but it's not germane to the story.) The court I was dealing with specifically told me that she would accept a Colorado concealed handgun permit or a Colorado MMJ card as ID. That is the only time and the only reason I would ever use my concealed handgun permit as ID.

So I show the woman my CHP. She tells me that she's considering getting one of her own and I tell her about the process. I don't remember how it came up but she asked me if I ever really carried a gun and they told her it was carrying one right then, (DMV was not posted I was breaking no laws.) I explicitly told the woman that I was carrying a gun. When it was time to get my photograph for my driver's license she asked me to take my coat off. I told her I couldn't because the DMV was posted against Open Carry.

I watched her go into shock. I had explicitly told her I was carrying a gun 5 minutes earlier and it still didn't register. You could walk through Walmart dressed like John Wayne and I would bet 90% of the people wouldn't even notice you.

Again, people, in general, aren't looking for that.

I'm also going to say this, I don't go to town unless I have to. I've already said I don't walk through Walmart looking for people who are carrying guns. I don't see too many either.

The overwhelming majority of people that you encounter in a given day are not carrying a gun.

Having said all that I have to ask this question, there's really only a thin layer of cotton between your gun and my gun. And in the ways van doesn't do anything to cover the butt of the gun.

So how is that same wind that Is exposing my gun Not exposing your gun?

 

[Anchorite]

What if it happened here and I couldn't find the magazine?

That's as good as any reason I think of to carry at least one reload.

The sheriff deputies in my county put reflective tape on the bottom of their magazines so someone with a flashlight will find the mag. Red for 9mm, Blue for 40.

 

[Lab4Us]

I don't know that I put a whole lot of thought into how much ammunition to carry. There's a quote from Masaad Ayoob in which he essentially says If the cops carry two reloads you should too.

This is the quote

Two complete reloads was standard equipment for most police officers before any of us here were born. If I was asked in court why I carry spare ammunition, my answer would probably be the same as my answer for why I load with hollow point ammunition:

"Sir, if the police determined it was the best thing to use to protect people such as myself and my family, it seemed obvious that it was the best thing for ME to carry to protect myself and my family."


I carry 2 reloads regardless what gun I'm carrying.

But wouldn’t he be talking about 6 shot revolvers? So two reloads = 12 + 6 in weapon (18 total). There are quite a few “carry” guns (not that I would call carry) that start with 15-17 rounds in the magazine in the gun.

That said, I usually carry one spare magazine loaded regardless of number of rounds. Magazines can fail, magazine release buttons can be pressed under stress, etc.

 

[Lab4Us]

Hmmmm? I wanna say yes but Im not convinced. Id say it depends on the situation. We all form opinions based on our experiences. Mine was more urban than rural and I lived through the single attacker with a steak knife to the "groups" (because we werent allowed to say GANG). By the end of my career the lone suspect was replaced by 3s, and 4s, and 5s.....

Sure two hits right at the start is great and may well end anything more; but when they scramble like roaches behind cover more just feels better and may be necessary

If I’m accosted with 3s, 4s and 5s, my goal has become evade and escape, and I’ll be providing myself cover fire (if by myself; if with family, probably going down fighting).

As someone else said, in reality, I’m a civilian now, plus I’m in a small city, and careful where/when I go - I pretty much have total control over that. So back to I carry a spare magazine in the event of magazine failure/inadvertent magazine release more so than to have 30-45 rounds.

 

[Annihilator]

That was the correct way to spell it before you yanks…oh, why do I bother?
View attachment 106962

 

[Anchorite]

One of the things that they stressed over and over and over again was The Instant the shooting was over you reload. If you only fired one shot you reload.

You can't do that if you don't have a second magazine.

At work my employer specified two reloads.

Mission drives equipment loadout, simple as that.

Can't find fault with the logic of a reload, but (and it's a BIG but) you're talking a church detail (possible site for active shooter) and your job in security.

I'm just offering that as a civilian going about my daily routine, not (intentionally) putting myself in a situation where an active shooter might want to hit my location, or going to a job that required me to carry for a possible theft/armed encounter, I feel absolutely confident in a J frame and 5 rounds, because unlike your two scenarios my encounter will more than likely be bad breath distance and over in 1-2 shots.

 

[The Night Rider]

Mission drives equipment loadout, simple as that.

Can't find fault with the logic of a reload, but (and it's a BIG but) you're talking a church detail (possible site for active shooter) and your job in security.

I'm just offering that as a civilian going about my daily routine, not (intentionally) putting myself in a situation where an active shooter might want to hit my location, or going to a job that required me to carry for a possible theft/armed encounter, I feel absolutely confident in a J frame and 5 rounds, because unlike your two scenarios my encounter will more than likely be bad breath distance and over in 1-2 shots.

I don't disagree with you.

The thing is I already have the setup of the Glock 19 and the holster and the Dual magazine carrier and all of the above.

Since I have all that stuff and I'm used to carrying it why not continue to carry it?

If I had nothing and was starting over again from scratch, I don't know I might still go get a Glock 19 but I also might go get a M&P Shield Plus or an M&P Shield.

I mean, that's more gun than most of us will ever need.

But again, I already have the money invested in the Glock might as well keep carrying that.

 

[The Night Rider]

But wouldn’t he be talking about 6 shot revolvers? So two reloads = 12 + 6 in weapon (18 total).

I can only tell you what he said. You'd have to ask him what he meant by it.

Not a response to the above quote.

I've said this before I worked as a security guard for 15 years.

For almost 7 years I worked on this site. For anybody that's familiar with Colorado Springs it's a propane storage facility on the East End of North Carefree where it intersects Marksheffle Boulevard.

When I worked there the entire west side of the property was that empty grass field in the picture. And I had to walk that fence line once an hour every night all night long.

One night I was walking the fence line and I startled something up there and it got up and ran past me and jumped the 8-ft fence around the property. I don't think it was a human being. I think it was an antelope because I can't imagine a human being that could jump an 8-ft fence with that short of a run up. I also can't imagine why a human being would be just laying out in the middle of that field after dark and then run away instead of attacking me.

Anyway, when that happened I panicked and drew my gun.

With the exception of a couple of buildings that I had to help my supervisor clear and he specifically instructed me to draw my gun for that, that is the only time in 15 years I ever felt the need to draw my gun as a security guard.

The point I'm trying to make here is that the odds are most of us will go through our entire lives carrying a concealed handgun will never draw it the first time.

I'm still going to carry a glock 19 into reloads because that's how I was taught.

 

[Anchorite]

I don't disagree with you.

The thing is I already have the setup of the Glock 19 and the holster and the Dual magazine carrier and all of the above.

Since I have all that stuff and I'm used to carrying it why not continue to carry it?

I mean, that's more gun than most of us will ever need.

But again, I already have the money invested in the Glock might as well keep carrying that.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
I was not trying to talk you out of abandoning your existing, current set up. No sir, not at all. I would never do that.

What you have, my friend, is a habit.
And a habit is, “a recurrent, often unconscious pattern of behavior that is acquired through frequent repetition,” that is in this case married to your G19 platform.

And I also have a habit, which is also defined as, “an established disposition of the mind or character,” in my case, carrying a Colt Agent 38Spl.

We operate/ live in different environments with different experiences and tactics used each day. But we’re more alike than different because we both share similar habits.

If I were starting out today (or maybe over), I would seriously consider carrying my G19 (or maybe 17, IDK).

 

[ECS686]

I read there was one other student of Tom Givens who was also robbed. According to what I read the robber got the drop on him and he didn't have time to draw his gun. So he handed over his wallet and the robber left.

I am a Rangemaster Advance Instructor (and retired FLETC and current Indiana LE Academy Instructor)

Ramgemaster has had over 70 Shootings. All of the forfeits the student didn’t have a gun and was executed after complying
Below is a link to the February 2925 newsletter with shooting stats

As far as my take from what I have experienced as a municipal LEO outside Memphis in Indiana and seeing some federal inmates.

Most folks ge too wrapped up on capacity. Whem I am off duty I usually only run one spare loading I usually run a M&P 45 compact with extra 10 round mag a K frame 64 with 6 rounds on a Galco 2x2x2 (I’m old enough I carried a wheelgun in the 80’s and 90’s and nobody reloaded a revolver in a gunfight they went to a backup gun)

Per Tom Givens thwre has never been any known reloads in a justified private citizen encounter

In actuality you will run out of time before ammo if there are multiple bad guys motivated the problem on street robberies whem the good guy anchors the first bad guy the rest lose interest minus a sanctioned Cartel hit.

As far as ammo I would recommend a Binded or something that locks the door to the jacket (Critical Duty) as while yes private normal earth people citizens don’t kick in doors or routine shoot through windows whem in an equal gunfight it’s not uncommon for the bad guy to take rounds through his forearms as if he is aiming a gun at you that happens in a lot of shootings and forearms are a barrier

The coulple exceptions is the Fed 9BPLe 115 9mm JHP as it’s low end 357 speed at 1,300 and will completely dice a forearm and same for the 125 and 158 357 mags with the 158 usually keeping most of its weight and keeps plugging through

Also a great reference is police body cam. When they go more tjan 7 shots it’s usually a mag dump and sounds cyclic and if the perp is hit it’s in the elbow if the shooting is less than 7 rounds it’s more of a pace of .40-.50 (right at half second splits) and the bad guy it hit in effective stop areas this not a lot of shots.

But is someone wants to carry around an active shooter kit all the time it’s a free country so you so you!

 

[JackobLone5]

Honestly, I don’t think the difference is as big as people make it out to be. Modern 9mm ammo has come a long way, so performance-wise it’s pretty close to .45 for most real-world situations.


For me it comes down more to capacity and what I shoot better. I’d rather have more rounds and faster follow-ups than rely on caliber hype. Both work it’s just preference at this point.