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9mm — Is it great or does it suck?

Plenty of people who clearly don't spend enough time with their rifles wound deer with a 30-06 or a 30-30 leaving it running around to suffer and either slowly bleed to death or get eaten by coyotes. On the other hand my cousin never misses with his .223.
 
Bassbob said:
Oh, my bad. Please direct me to where someone is making the claim that modern ammo ( i.e. advances in technology) made 9mm equal to .45 so I can laugh at them. And what I read on the internet was FBI data which states that 9mm is as effective at neutralizing a threat and further addresses shot placement, which I also mentioned. And since we're " Checking this out", THIS is specifically what i was responding to.

"so why would anyone choose a smaller caliber because someone from a Blog, or gun mag say it's good to go, when that isn't an Elk but a bad guy trying to do you harm...….?"

And this is the only thing you said that I was addressing:

"And for the ones that say today's advanced technology makes the 9mm equal is totally wrong."


This is an internet forum, if you only want people you are specifically talking to responding to you, maybe you should stick to FB where you can control content.


For the record I don't carry 9mm. I carry .45 and in situations where a smaller footprint is required I carry a .40
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Perhaps you should stop dancing around the question that you were asked and just answer it since you are so confident in your knowledge and data. But "You" still didnt. Instead you went off on another rant. But that's what I expected. No worries you are hereby "IGNORED!"
 
To agree with many shot placement is paramount. Plus unlike TV very few handgun rounds are in the "one shot stop" realm. Many tests show that with good ammo there is not a huge difference between calibers for self defense with handguns. I shoot all calibers but since I don't shoot in competition anymore I have been moving more to 9mm. My favorite was .40 because it was Major in USPSA and reloading was cheap and the recoil was easy with reloads. The same could be said for .45 reloads. Making Major was still nicer than factory. But now you can buy 9mm for almost what it would cost to reload. People will never agree on caliber or stop arguing about 1911 vs polymer guns.
 
As many have said shot placement is paramount as "one shot stops' ARE USUALLY RESEAVED FOR RIFLES. I used to shoot USPSA so .40 and .45 were my mainstay (major instead of minor) but since I don't shoot in competition any longer I find myself just as happy with 9mm. I still load .40 and .45 but the cost of range 9mm is so good not worth loading. I do stay away from .380 as the cost and variety of ammo just is not worth it to me.
 
I was taught in my CCW class, 2 hits to the chest...1 to the head, almost any caliber will work with this, I know it’s sounds bad stating this, but that was how our instructor taught us, I got my class from where I worked at, my local Sheriff Dept. Like I said before, there will always be a caliber disagreement, but, what ever works for you, may not work for the next guy, shot placement is the key in any self defense situation, just my opinion.
 
A comment on large calibers. They are no good if you can not practice enough with them to become proficient. Large caliber ammo is expensive. Then we move on to recoil. One of the prettiest handguns I used to own was a S&W Performance Center 3" .44 magnum. Best use for self defense was to give it to the bad guy and let him shoot it. Also there is no argument that large calibers recoil more and take longer to get back on target.

All that said the handgun I shoot best is a Sig 1911.45 Stainless Super Target. My EDC's are a rotation of .40 and 9mm H&K's with a new Sig P365 slowly working it's way in. I have never noticed a big deal shooting .40's maybe because my second handgun was a Sig P226 in .40 so it seemed normal.

The hole you make with a 9mm will be smaller than a .40 and a .45 will be the largest, expansion being the same for bullet type. Your job is to put the bullet in the best spot. NYC police have an under 20% hit rate. The only thing about caliber that matters there is property and bystanders.
 
The Springfield Armory EMP 3 9MM is my primary urban carry handgun. I use Fed 147 HST LE (standard pressure, not +P) rounds. For Rocky Mountain wilderness where I might encounter a very mean critter, my Springfield Armory TRP .45 Auto is on my belt.
 
I’m just going to point this out:

Ammo manufacturers have spent decades trying to make little bullets perform as well as big bullets.

The opposite...not so much.

Any advance in bullet technology is applied across the board, so if it improves a 9mm's performance by X%...a .45 gets improved by that much as well.

So at the end of the day, what do we know?

Hits count. Multiple hits count more. Fewer good hits are better than more bad hits.

If you can’t control a caliber/platform well enough to make multiple, rapid good hits...you need to rethink your choices. If you can make rapid good hits with a .45, go with it. If a 9mm works better for you, don’t worry about caliber insufficiency...g with what works for you.

But I’ll add this: if I had to count on a caliber to effect a single shot, immediate stop...and my options were .45, .40 or 9mm...I’m taking that .45, every time.
 
KillerFord1977 said:
I may be way off base, but wasnt the change from .45 and .357 style guns to 9mm, etc, partly due to training proficiency?

it took longer to properly train a soldier or law enforcement officer on the larger calibers to be really proficient is what I remember from long ago. Thus switching out to 9mm in the army from .45
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It was 1985, switch to 9mm in a beretta 92. Mostly due to NATO guidelines, able to carry more ammo for a given weight , so more people could handle the recoil and standardization between countries. Special ops people quickly went back to .45acp. ... The FBI did something similar but oppsite. They got away from the 9mm, tried the 10mm, couldn't handle it and made the .40.
 
Annihilator said:
I was taught in my CCW class, 2 hits to the chest...1 to the head, almost any caliber will work with this, I know it’s sounds bad stating this, but that was how our instructor taught us, I got my class from where I worked at, my local Sheriff Dept. Like I said before, there will always be a caliber disagreement, but, what ever works for you, may not work for the next guy, shot placement is the key in any self defense situation, just my opinion.
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Yes, the Mozambique drill! ;) They also teach you to empty the mag....the fun way!
 
REV1NRA said:
It was 1985, switch to 9mm in a beretta 92. Mostly due to NATO guidelines, able to carry more ammo for a given weight , so more people could handle the recoil and standardization between countries. Special ops people quickly went back to .45acp. ... The FBI did something similar but oppsite. They got away from the 9mm, tried the 10mm, couldn't handle it and made the .40.
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So...your comment about the FBI not being able to handle 10mm?

It’s utterly, completely apocryphal.

First off, the FBI never, not for a single second, considered what was considered the full power 10mm load (the 200gr Norma @ an advertised 1300fps). The wanted a load that would duplicate a 185gr .45acp load (what they considered the most effective autoloader round at the time). So...a 180gr bullet @ 950fps (.40 fans should recognize those numbers). Federal developed a 10mm HydraShok load with those specs; S&W delivered the 1076. It was found that a couple (literally, single digits) of agents with smaller hands had trouble qualifying with the 1076–due to the trigger reach. The S&W 1086, with a slightly shorter trigger, worked fine.

S&W looked at those specs, asked Olin-Winchester if they could duplicate it in a shorter case that would fit existing doublestack 9mm frames...O-W said they had already developed it in the early 1980’s, but didn't think it was commercially viable at the time. S&W said to produce it, we'll make the guns to fit...the rest is history.

This comes, mostly, from a (now former) agent who was actually at Quantico at the time as a trainer.
 
HansGruber said:
So...your comment about the FBI not being able to handle 10mm?

It’s utterly, completely apocryphal.

First off, the FBI never, not for a single second, considered what was considered the full power 10mm load (the 200gr Norma @ an advertised 1300fps). The wanted a load that would duplicate a 185gr .45acp load (what they considered the most effective autoloader round at the time). So...a 180gr bullet @ 950fps (.40 fans should recognize those numbers). Federal developed a 10mm HydraShok load with those specs; S&W delivered the 1076. It was found that a couple (literally, single digits) of agents with smaller hands had trouble qualifying with the 1076–due to the trigger reach. The S&W 1086, with a slightly shorter trigger, worked fine.

S&W looked at those specs, asked Olin-Winchester if they could duplicate it in a shorter case that would fit existing doublestack 9mm frames...O-W said they had already developed it in the early 1980’s, but didn't think it was commercially viable at the time. S&W said to produce it, we'll make the guns to fit...the rest is history.

This comes, mostly, from a (now former) agent who was actually at Quantico at the time as a trainer.
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My info came from a former agent that I compete with as well. Some couldn't qualify with the more powerful round. There wasn't many 10mm options then. S&W developed the .40 ( a cut down 10mm) after they ( the FBI) had trouble qualifying with the 10mm, saying it had too much recoil. Then later came the .357sig (a necked down .40) that the secret service started using but never caught on. So yes, they couldn't handle it. My friend wished they kept it after steeping up from his original 9mm, And wanted the 9mm back after using the .40 with reduced capacity compared to the 9mm.
 
REV1NRA said:
My info came from a former agent that I compete with as well. Some couldn't qualify with the more powerful round. There wasn't many 10mm options then. S&W developed the .40 ( a cut down 10mm) after they ( the FBI) had trouble qualifying with the 10mm, saying it had too much recoil. Then later came the .357sig (a necked down .40) that the secret service started using but never caught on. So yes, they couldn't handle it. My friend wished they kept it after steeping up from his original 9mm, And wanted the 9mm back after using the .40 with reduced capacity compared to the 9mm.
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You’re missing the point.

A 10mm firing a 180gr bullet at 950fps will have the same recoil as a .40 firing a 180gr bullet at 950fps in the same platform. Do the math.

The FBI never issued the Norma load. They never considered it.

S&W didn’t develop the .40; Olin-Winchester did...in the early 1980’s. S&W got O-W to release it with their name on it.

Also, .357 Sig is technically a necked down 10mm...you can’t neck .40 to make .357, it'll be too short.

Unless your friend was there at the time...he probably heard it second hand.
 
HansGruber said:
You’re missing the point.

A 10mm firing a 180gr bullet at 950fps will have the same recoil as a .40 firing a 180gr bullet at 950fps in the same platform. Do the math.

The FBI never issued the Norma load. They never considered it.

S&W didn’t develop the .40; Olin-Winchester did...in the early 1980’s. S&W got O-W to release it with their name on it.

Also, .357 Sig is technically a necked down 10mm...you can’t neck .40 to make .357, it'll be too short.

Unless your friend was there at the time...he probably heard it second hand.
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What you say makes sense about the fps. I never said it was the Norma load, but I also never heard of a 10mm especially back then being that under powered until more resent years as option's increased and got popular. ... Yes OW actually made the round under design contracted by S&W. ... True about the .357 sig, I didn't mean you could make a .357 sig out of a .40 case. Just OAL is the same with higher ballistics because of the bottle neck design. My Sig 226 is a .357sig. I have the .40 barrel also but it doesn't perform like the .357sig round. .... My friend is pushing 70 right now, He was in it before the switch and long after it, retiring late 90s early 2000.
 
HansGruber said:
@REV1NRA :

gundigest.com

10mm Handguns and the FBI

The FBI’s brief dalliance with 10mm handguns led to the development of the .40 Smith & Wesson cartridge, and experts are still divided on the question of the 10mm’s application for law enforcement.
gundigest.com gundigest.com

The real story. I never heard about the issues with the 1076, but the rest is pretty much as I was told.
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I didn't see mention of cracked frames during testing either.
 
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