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Ayoob: Don’t Make These Carry Gun Mod Mistakes

Great info for the novice and the expert. Three rules of comprehension.
Rule #1. First you have to tell them your going to tell them.
Rule #2. Tell them.
Rule #3. Tell them that you told them.
 

mnmkram

Alpha
Even though I love my auto loader (a Springfield Armory EMD 4 10+1) I prefer to carry a double action wheel gun for self defense. I feel it is safer for all the reasons listed in this article. Mine is Smith & Wesson Pro Series 3 inch , in a .357 magnum. 5 rounds, it weighs 23 oz.
 
Thank you Mr. Ayoob, for a great Advice article. I've read your advice in previous publications, but I believe what you've said needs to be circulated often. Especially considering the large number of first time gun owners we're seeing.

I've followed your advice for years now. My EDC, a SIG P365, is stock, as was my previous CW. I go so far as only carrying factory Personal Defense ammo, even though I reload. It hasn't happened that I'm aware of, but I've little doubt we'll see a Prosecutor prattle on about highly lethal handloads at some point. That someone hand loaded their ammo to kill better. I think it's just a matter of time before ammo is brought up.
Thank you again Sir, for all the work you've done through the years for the Firearm Community.
I appreciate it.
 

SoNic

Elite
Mr. Ayoob is always insightful, I am subscribed to his YT channel.
Don't know if he reads this forum though...
 
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I have one issue with this article and that's in your comment about "if people believed you, you wouldn't be on trial"...in today's politically charged environment and the willingness of criminals and/or their families to sue the actual victim of their crimes for damages, being believed has almost absolutely zero to do with the fact of whether or not you're gong to be on trial. There are too many DA's trying to make a name for themselves with their liberal fanbase of gun-hating voters and million dollar donors, I find it naive to think otherwise!
 

Bassbob

SAINT
I have one issue with this article and that's in your comment about "if people believed you, you wouldn't be on trial"...in today's politically charged environment and the willingness of criminals and/or their families to sue the actual victim of their crimes for damages, being believed has almost absolutely zero to do with the fact of whether or not you're gong to be on trial. There are too many DA's trying to make a name for themselves with their liberal fanbase of gun-hating voters and million dollar donors, I find it naive to think otherwise!
The issue I have is that just like every single person I have ever asked who claimed gun mods like trigger jobs would get you in trouble with an overzealous prosecutor, (and I have asked everyone I ever saw or heard say it), he fails to produce one example of it actually happening. He was quick to point out his credentials as to why we should believe him, but he never gave us any proof. Other than his word as a 40 year gun writer, tactical expert, blah, blah, blah.

I'm willing to be proved wrong. In fact I'm begging to be proved wrong.

And for the record all my triggers are stock, so even though credentially I am no one, I have no dog in the fight.
 

KillerFord1977

Ronin
Founding Member
One can debate here or there. Or there or here.
The defense, prosecutor, and jury have the final words.

just ask OJ Simpson.

until the gavel comes down, every subject is subjective
 

Bassbob

SAINT
One can debate here or there. Or there or here.
The defense, prosecutor, and jury have the final words.

just ask OJ Simpson.

until the gavel comes down, every subject is subjective


One single example. That's all I'm saying. Thousands of legitimate self defense shootings. Just one example of a trigger job or trigger mod getting an otherwise lawful SD shooter in trouble with a prosecutor.
 

SoNic

Elite
Just one example of a trigger job or trigger mod getting an otherwise lawful SD shooter in trouble with a prosecutor.
It depends where you live and how brainwashed the jury is there. How else anti-gun people get voted to those positions?
This an example of legislator that makes gun-control laws using scare tactics to influence his voters:

If he was elected by the same people that would stand as jury in a trial, what do you think the outcome of that trial will be?
 

Bassbob

SAINT
It depends where you live and how brainwashed the jury is there. How else anti-gun people get voted to those positions?
This an example of legislator that makes gun-control laws using scare tactics to influence his voters:

If he was elected by the same people that would stand as jury in a trial, what do you think the outcome of that trial will be?
No one is saying it isn’t possible. I’m saying when and where HAS it happened.
 

KillerFord1977

Ronin
Founding Member
One single example. That's all I'm saying. Thousands of legitimate self defense shootings. Just one example of a trigger job or trigger mod getting an otherwise lawful SD shooter in trouble with a prosecutor.
I am referring to the jury may toss the case laughing over a gun mod or take it as you tried to be premeditated.

who the heck knows until the gavel comes down. Everyone thought OJ would be convicted.

my opinion is there is no correlation with a modified gun. That’s my opinion only
 

HayesGreener

Professional
Throughout my career with three different agencies, modifications of duty firearms other than authorized sight and grip upgrades were strictly prohibited. Changes in trigger weights or other internal modifications were cause for disciplinary action. The reasons were simple: reliability, and safety. Quality combat handguns are engineered to be carried safely and to work reliably. Having a gunsmith smooth an action is one thing, but with a carry gun that your life depends on, why would a shady tree gunsmith believe he knows more than the engineers, and start clipping springs here, filing parts there, and removing safety devices? Other than factory enhancements, leave it alone, or get one that suits you better.

As far as the legal aspects of using a modified firearm in self defense, unless you were not justified, or had a negligent discharge, lawyers may attempt to make mountains from anthills, but the mechanical condition of the gun is probably not going to be a pivotal factor in determining guilt. Inscriptions on the gun that might lead one to believe that you were looking for an opportunity to shoot someone is another matter.

The use of deadly force is a primitive, rude, brutal affair that is seen in granular detail by the police and courts. The key questions are always, would a reasonable person believe it was reasonable, and was it necessary?
 
The issue I have is that just like every single person I have ever asked who claimed gun mods like trigger jobs would get you in trouble with an overzealous prosecutor, (and I have asked everyone I ever saw or heard say it), he fails to produce one example of it actually happening. He was quick to point out his credentials as to why we should believe him, but he never gave us any proof. Other than his word as a 40 year gun writer, tactical expert, blah, blah, blah.

I'm willing to be proved wrong. In fact I'm begging to be proved wrong.

And for the record all my triggers are stock, so even though credentially I am no one, I have no dog in the fight.

credentials - well, being an expert witness in untold cases is the best credential...

It can be hard to find what all statements were made by a prosecutor in every trial, including closing comments to help cast guilt.

What you CAN find is that SOP for processing a gun into evidence is to test the the trigger pull in pretty much any jurisdiction you can find, and that national forensic guides call for it. So that evidence IS AVAILABLE in every case.

So in comes down to 1) that evidence is available 2) a prosecutor will use anything they can to get a conviction.

So even if you can't find a record of it, do you really want to be the first? Prosecutors are getting more and more savvy on how to get convictions and how to pick on aspects of guns (lots of help from teh gun control organizations). Why give them ammunition to use against you? Are you willing to gamble against the advice of the expert witness your counsel will try to hire?

"Yes, Mr. Ayoob, you have made compelling testimony on distances and threats, but what is your opinion on the defendant having modified his gun with a hair trigger to make it easier to shoot? How are these hair triggers treated by law enforcement agencies for their duty guns? If it is not recommended for law enforcement PROFESSIONALS with years of training, what kind of person would do that? " How will have to answer honestly and you have just turned your expert witness into THEIR expert witness.

In most highly populated areas of this country the odds of getting a juror that has any clue about this topic is extremely small. Even that occasional shooter gun owner "Humm, yeah, I worry about accidentally pulling the trigger myself, what type WOULD want a hair trigger?"

It's only your freedom and everything you and your family own and will own that you are gambling with. If you can't shoot accurately enough with a stock trigger weight at defense distances, you 1) need to practice more 2) maybe shouldn't own a gun.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
 

Core

Operator
Founding Member
Hello all, here is today's article posted on TheArmoryLife.com. It is titled "Ayoob: Don’t Make These Carry Gun Mod Mistakes" and can be found at https://www.thearmorylife.com/ayoob-dont-make-these-carry-gun-mod-mistakes/.

I don't consider it a hair trigger until it's below 2oz. That's just me. My finger muscle twitch will fire anything around 2lbs, and over 5lbs is enough to become problematic for me. If you look at older factory 1911's the sear is chewed up and no matter how the springs are "tuned" and no matter how well the other fire control components are polished the sear will always be a weak link. A properly heat treated and polished FCG will result in a smooth 5lb trigger pull and should be good enough for a clean break and not break unexpectedly for majority. I like Ed Brown's FCGs no MIM stuff.
 

Core

Operator
Founding Member
credentials - well, being an expert witness in untold cases is the best credential...

It can be hard to find what all statements were made by a prosecutor in every trial, including closing comments to help cast guilt.

What you CAN find is that SOP for processing a gun into evidence is to test the the trigger pull in pretty much any jurisdiction you can find, and that national forensic guides call for it. So that evidence IS AVAILABLE in every case.

So in comes down to 1) that evidence is available 2) a prosecutor will use anything they can to get a conviction.

So even if you can't find a record of it, do you really want to be the first? Prosecutors are getting more and more savvy on how to get convictions and how to pick on aspects of guns (lots of help from teh gun control organizations). Why give them ammunition to use against you? Are you willing to gamble against the advice of the expert witness your counsel will try to hire?

"Yes, Mr. Ayoob, you have made compelling testimony on distances and threats, but what is your opinion on the defendant having modified his gun with a hair trigger to make it easier to shoot? How are these hair triggers treated by law enforcement agencies for their duty guns? If it is not recommended for law enforcement PROFESSIONALS with years of training, what kind of person would do that? " How will have to answer honestly and you have just turned your expert witness into THEIR expert witness.

In most highly populated areas of this country the odds of getting a juror that has any clue about this topic is extremely small. Even that occasional shooter gun owner "Humm, yeah, I worry about accidentally pulling the trigger myself, what type WOULD want a hair trigger?"

It's only your freedom and everything you and your family own and will own that you are gambling with. If you can't shoot accurately enough with a stock trigger weight at defense distances, you 1) need to practice more 2) maybe shouldn't own a gun.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
I feel like there is a disconnect in the perception of a well made clean 5lb trigger and a spongy gritty horribly made 5lb trigger. I agree with Mr. Ayoob in that a competition trigger should not be fielded as a carry or duty trigger. There are plenty of amazing duty grade triggers on the market that cover the bases and are leaps and bounds better than many OEM triggers. Some manufacturers do a better job on their OEM triggers and you can work with what came with it. I like my older XD triggers, long spongy but smooth and clean break. 1911 can be more challenging if the FCG components are soft and not heat treated properly.
 
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HayesGreener

Professional
Browning Hi Power magazine safety or S&W?
Same boat? Was trying to research what Federal agencies did with theirs , keep or remove?
Every law enforcement agency I ever had anything to do with prohibited removing any factory safety devices from issued firearms. I would never own a gun that has had a device removed. If you didn't like the design, you got a different gun. Not to say that some officers who were authorized to carry personally owned weapons didn't do the modification.

FWIW, magazine disconnects in S&W pistols certainly saved officers lives, well documented by the Illinois State Police, but no one has ever shown me a documented case where an officer was harmed because he had a magazine disconnect on his pistol.
 
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