Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Peachfarmer
Alpha
Active LE 1986-2008, carried .357-9mm-,40 SW, decided to buy Springfield 1911 Operator AOS 5” with the thought of a red dot… love the gun so much decided iron good enough. The article caught my eye and enjoyed all the discussion. Now in my 70’s don’t find the recoil bad and front sight gets back on target quicker than my 3.8” xdm .40. Have to agree with comments about current police training & qualifications, my training was pass or go home with one remedial try.
nah we're still here. Only we can have all of them and not just two. My favorite is the one that does the job.Well shucks, I guess us 10mm guys are out in the cold
Oldmountaiman
Master Class
I favor the original bullet from long ago like me, the 200gr does its job and needs no plus. When I do my printing the round still works for me and at 10yds I am still printing at just under 2in. At my age it's defend my mobility was gone a few years back so my job is to protect my wife and home and I will leave the long range to my son.
Actual shootings contain infinite variables, making any best handgun/caliber choice very subjective.
If I could be certain of multiple hits during a high-speed mag dumps, there are some very good ,22 mag cartridges and pistols that will swiss-cheese a violent opponent in seconds.
With the likelihood of everyone involved moving, scoring even one hit at close range, is repeatedly a dismal statistic.
Over the years I have become tired of reading/watching trained police officers relying on any high capacity pistol to do the job, with entire mag dumps and none or only a single minor hit.
During your cover, fire, and maneuver,
settle down and do your best to make the first shot count. If the only firearm you can handle decently is a .22, that is what you should use. My choice is the 1911 in .45 with 230 grain +P loads.
Statistically, mega-round counts are improbable and there is little data supporting incredibly fast, rapid fire as truly effective.
A spare reload is naturally common sense to carry, regardless of caliber.
If I could be certain of multiple hits during a high-speed mag dumps, there are some very good ,22 mag cartridges and pistols that will swiss-cheese a violent opponent in seconds.
With the likelihood of everyone involved moving, scoring even one hit at close range, is repeatedly a dismal statistic.
Over the years I have become tired of reading/watching trained police officers relying on any high capacity pistol to do the job, with entire mag dumps and none or only a single minor hit.
During your cover, fire, and maneuver,
settle down and do your best to make the first shot count. If the only firearm you can handle decently is a .22, that is what you should use. My choice is the 1911 in .45 with 230 grain +P loads.
Statistically, mega-round counts are improbable and there is little data supporting incredibly fast, rapid fire as truly effective.
A spare reload is naturally common sense to carry, regardless of caliber.
rcurtner
Professional
Yes they are!Bigger holes are better.
rcurtner
Professional
Welcome to the forum from South Texas.
I still can't keep track of what is which...
Although I have both calibers, back in the day when they took my .357 Magnum rounds away for .38 Special (appears woke was around in the 80's), decided six .38 rounds ain't enough. What, no one remember why .357 mag was created in the first place? Bought a S&W 659 with it's 15 rounds and found out it needed them. Went to the Range shooting metal plates and went "seriously", then compared to a S&W 645 in .45 acp. The winner was in with the clang vs. the ping, along with knowing of a recent shoot out with 54 9mm rounds exchanged and no penetration of value and one participant hit a couple times and not out of the fight. Give me the flying ashtrays (HP) any day, although I use the 9mm 2011/M-9 for those multi-round days on the Range, getting old and the clang hurts more than the ping.
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
I'm old enough to remember Ayoob's article in a law enforcement magazine way back when, assuring all of us cops (who back then overwhelmingly carried some flavor of .38 caliber revolver) that the Glaser Safety Slug was the penultimate one shot fight stopper. I still have that magazine and article stashed away to remind me of how gullible I can be when an emotional pitch is made to me. He provided multiple examples he had collected from the mean streets on how devastating this new round was when used on street trash who were attempting to murder our fellow cops.
He as a new and upcoming gun writer conned me as a young cop back then to buy a box of Safety Slugs to stoke my K frame .38 Special - risking the wrath of the department who forbade carrying anything but issue ammunition if they had discovered my revolver loaded with The Blue Nosed Wonders.
I carried it just long enough to be sent to put down a deer with a broken leg on the highway outside of town, which provided a test case for the awesome Glaser Safety Slug to show us what Ayoob had promised us would act like Thor's Hammer.
One shot, right behind the front leg... and awesome never happened. The deer did in fact die, but the expected One Shot Stop didn't happen. I wrote a letter of complaint and received another box in exchange. Deer being regularly hit by cars there, the next deer became the next test bed for the Safety Slug. Pretty much exactly the same results as the first.
And that was my last time being gullible enough to unquestionably believe Reserve Deputy Sheriff Ayoob's advice and recommendations. The man has made a good living out of making and selling himself, not from putting in 40+ hours a week of doing police work. Good for him for being a successful capitalist - seeing a market and providing a marketable product to sell to that market.
Anybody want to buy a box of vintage Glaser Safety Slugs, with two rounds missing, as a souvenir reminder of Masaad Ayoob?
How about you, Mr. Ayoob, as a fond reminder of your early days as a gun writer?
I did however, go to one of the ballistics seminars that Vista put on a few years ago just before retirement. Their ballisticians flatly told us that they saw no statistical significance between calibers, bullet weights, standard pressure versus +P, etc in the after action reports they got from the police departments using their service ammunition in all their various flavors. And they don't do their testing and reviews by shooting bowling ball pins.
Those brands' ballisticians could of course be lying to all the assembled attendees at those seminars from enforcement agencies across this country. There COULD be a real difference where either the .45 ACP or 9mm is the superior caliber that they are hiding for some nefarious purpose.
If so, and you believe that is true... whatever caliber you choose to carry as an armed citizen... why in the world would you buy and carry their ammunition (or ammunition loaded with their bullets) in your preferred caliber if you know that their terminal ballisticians are lying to you about the performance of their ammunition?
The nice thing about being a citizen without a government employer is you get to choose not only the handgun make and model you are convinced is the best, but also the caliber you know for a fact is the very best for the purpose you're carrying that handgun. And of course, the ammunition manufacturer who you trust to carry their products.
If you do have to use that handgun, Ayoob and nobody else will be there to handle the situation for you.
Just you and the choices you made, based on whatever you made those choices on.
He as a new and upcoming gun writer conned me as a young cop back then to buy a box of Safety Slugs to stoke my K frame .38 Special - risking the wrath of the department who forbade carrying anything but issue ammunition if they had discovered my revolver loaded with The Blue Nosed Wonders.
I carried it just long enough to be sent to put down a deer with a broken leg on the highway outside of town, which provided a test case for the awesome Glaser Safety Slug to show us what Ayoob had promised us would act like Thor's Hammer.
One shot, right behind the front leg... and awesome never happened. The deer did in fact die, but the expected One Shot Stop didn't happen. I wrote a letter of complaint and received another box in exchange. Deer being regularly hit by cars there, the next deer became the next test bed for the Safety Slug. Pretty much exactly the same results as the first.
And that was my last time being gullible enough to unquestionably believe Reserve Deputy Sheriff Ayoob's advice and recommendations. The man has made a good living out of making and selling himself, not from putting in 40+ hours a week of doing police work. Good for him for being a successful capitalist - seeing a market and providing a marketable product to sell to that market.
Anybody want to buy a box of vintage Glaser Safety Slugs, with two rounds missing, as a souvenir reminder of Masaad Ayoob?
How about you, Mr. Ayoob, as a fond reminder of your early days as a gun writer?
I did however, go to one of the ballistics seminars that Vista put on a few years ago just before retirement. Their ballisticians flatly told us that they saw no statistical significance between calibers, bullet weights, standard pressure versus +P, etc in the after action reports they got from the police departments using their service ammunition in all their various flavors. And they don't do their testing and reviews by shooting bowling ball pins.
Those brands' ballisticians could of course be lying to all the assembled attendees at those seminars from enforcement agencies across this country. There COULD be a real difference where either the .45 ACP or 9mm is the superior caliber that they are hiding for some nefarious purpose.
If so, and you believe that is true... whatever caliber you choose to carry as an armed citizen... why in the world would you buy and carry their ammunition (or ammunition loaded with their bullets) in your preferred caliber if you know that their terminal ballisticians are lying to you about the performance of their ammunition?
The nice thing about being a citizen without a government employer is you get to choose not only the handgun make and model you are convinced is the best, but also the caliber you know for a fact is the very best for the purpose you're carrying that handgun. And of course, the ammunition manufacturer who you trust to carry their products.
If you do have to use that handgun, Ayoob and nobody else will be there to handle the situation for you.
Just you and the choices you made, based on whatever you made those choices on.
Biggfoot44
Master Class
The purpose of Ammo Companies LE Seminars , is to sell their Brand of ammunition .
Not likely to be actually untruthful , but with spin for their products.
[ Insert true life account , l'm disinclined to type out right now . ]
Not likely to be actually untruthful , but with spin for their products.
[ Insert true life account , l'm disinclined to type out right now . ]
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
When did Ayoob EVER make his living as a peace officer? You know, where you do 40+ hours a week as a cop to earn your daily bread?
Unless I'm wrong, he made his living doing other things, while putting in some time as a Reserve Police Officer in a booming metropolis that had a population of about 400 people when he started selling his writing and himself in the 1970's as a Reserve Police Officer. The population exploded to 800 people in the 1980s!
By the time of 9/11, the population had soared to 924 households, was 98.5% white, and the median household income was about $65,000 a year with less than 2% of the population under the poverty line. That town's crime index is about 23 times lower than the national average - which shouldn't hardly be a surprise when you consider the town demographics.
That's the apparent violent and grim crime-ridden streets where Ayoob gained his part time LONG time as a Peace Officer.
Now that's what I call authoritative policing experience! What's your best guess at how many hours a week he put in as a Reserve Police Officer while touring around the country giving seminars, making other appearances, competing, writing articles and books, etc? Even one shift a week?
What other author, pray tell? Well, as just one single example, Jim Cirillo - you've probably heard of him. Would you like to compare them on the basis of how many actual gunfights they've been in? As best I'm aware (I don't worship and follow his career), Ayoob has been in exactly none.
About the only thing they have in common is BOTH put a lot of time into practicing long enough to be accomplished competitive shooters. For Ayoob, being able to point to being a successful competitive shooter enhanced his personal marketability by being able to regularly remind readers of how he placed in competitions. Cirillo didn't need to do it to pump up his annual income or enhance his reputation.
That said, I don't look to people like either Ayoob or Cirillo as oracles of truth, simply because the circumstances they are in have little in common with mine, either during my years as a cop or since. They or others may at times provide some interesting insights to me that I could learn from, but that's about it.
The best resource for street cops during my time as a cop was Caliber Press, starting with Street Survival and the later books from them. And even that I never considered to be the final authority on all things tactical for surviving a life threatening encounter.
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
Unlike Ayoob - whose purpose ISN'T to sell himself and his products?
Yeah... so essentially they're lying to you when their ballisticians tell questioners from police departments that they see no difference between calibers, between bullet weights, between standard and +P pressure.
If they're doing that, that isn't "spin" - that's lying.
Now why would you determine that they're lying to you - or "spinning" if you prefer to call it that - and then decide to trust your life to the ammunition that they're selling?
Old Airborne Dog
Alpha
And it will definitely not go faster! There is that...A 9mm might expand, but a .45 won't shrink.
Really, we should all realize that if we aren't carrying a .45 Rowland, we might as well be using 9mms.
Winchester67
Custom
I am not sure how to respond. Mas has a long history of writing and has access to police reports on Department shootings. I trust his perspective.
Belt Fed
Ronin
I have a box of them somewhere. and yeah, they were not that great
Here is my observations from going from revolver to M9 see the 40 cal fad after FBI Miami shooting all that.
Mas didn’t lie to anyone and just like the FBI had that one failure with a 115 Silvertip it wasn’t the 9mm it was that particular 9mm built at a cross torso shot .a 9mm NATO ball round would have ended it.
The Silvertip did exactly as they wanted at the time and that was rapid expansion. Scores of other departments had success with the 115 Silvertip WHEN SHOOTING SUSPECTS straight on (that whole flat range thing)
The Fed 9mm 115 plus o list 9BPLE round has an epic track record from hitting suspects at all angle because it performs like a 357 magnum with trama and gets penetration similar to the Silvertip.
When Mas write the article the Hlaser seems like a great round but this was an era long before gel was used they used clay or water filled milk jugs and we had not yet learned tactical anatomy and shooting off angles through an arm to get the heart etc etc
As someone that carried a HK 45 LEM for duty because until recently we were mandated 45 the 45 vs 9mm it doesn’t matter. Sure a 45 will usually knock a bowling pin off a table faster however if you run true nato velocity defensive loads like a 124 at 1,200 that is lower end 357 magnum and Indianapolis OD are dropping felons at least ince a week to 10 days
Shot placement and penetration matter more than expansion, caliber and mag capacity.
And we have learned and know a lot more about shooting humans from body cam video, detail after actions and everything in this transparent age. Almost everything is pretty much open source info these days compared to the 1970’s
So to me I respect Mr Ayoob and he reported what seemed to be accurate . I think we all have done stuff that we learned was wrong.
We use to never wear seat belts or use harnesses in deer stands but when we saw the outcome of others that didn’t get injured or killed we learned to change some view in that.
Winchester67
Custom
As for me, I carry a .45 because a fella runs out of time before he runs out of bullets. If I can't solve the problem with 8 shots, another 8 probably won't tip the balance.
AMEN.
Look at any body cam shooting video. Anything more than 3-7 shots usually (more times than not) end up with a mag dunp and the perp hit (if at all) in the ankle or elbow
You become more deliberate when you run anything under 10 rounds.
Back in the day we had 18 rounds of 38/357 and if lucky a shotgun with 4 rounds of buckshot to deal with whatever there was no go fast ferry’s just Deliberate skill!