Ayoob: Is .45 Still Better Than 9mm?
- Thread starter Mike H.
- Start date
Keystone19250
SAINT
Agreed, your not alone in your thoughts on him.
HansGruber
SAINT
I think, when Ayoob speaks as a professional witness, it’s worth hearing what he has to say. I don’t completely agree with some of his points (eg, trigger modification), but I do realize he’s bringing points that will make his job easier should he be called to defend any given case.
On the subject of guns/ammo, and effectiveness? He’s just another gun writer, who’s paid to say positive things about guns & ammo that his publisher wants him to write about. I’m sure that if there was something that was absolute crap put in front of him, he’d say it…which means you’d never see the article (this does happen fairly often when an item is complete dreck; they just never publish a truly negative review).
On the subject of guns/ammo, and effectiveness? He’s just another gun writer, who’s paid to say positive things about guns & ammo that his publisher wants him to write about. I’m sure that if there was something that was absolute crap put in front of him, he’d say it…which means you’d never see the article (this does happen fairly often when an item is complete dreck; they just never publish a truly negative review).
Biggfoot44
Master Class
Cart>Horse>Chicken>Egg .
Everybody ( ok , signifigant % of buyers ) want to have the New Thing , just like the Police / Millitary .
Reach a tipping point , and economy of scale ammo prices come down compared to inflation . Then , signifigant % want to get that caliber , just to take advantage of the cheap ammo .
Dating myself , but l remember when 9mm cost about twice as much as .38 Special .
Anchorite
Master Class
I don’t recall exactly when, but our local sheriff transitioned back to 9mm from the 40 early 2012-2015 or so, now all carry Glock 9mms. All the municipal PDs followed suit.
Why, exactly, I don’t know that anyone has a definitive answer. But if the world goes ****-up, you best have a few 9mms lying around. That and some 223. Those two will be in abundance.
Why, exactly, I don’t know that anyone has a definitive answer. But if the world goes ****-up, you best have a few 9mms lying around. That and some 223. Those two will be in abundance.
I watch what guys shoot at in you tube like Demolition Ranch, KY Ballistics, YeeYee etc. the bullet type and velocity matters but shot placement is the key. We almost went to Glock 21s for our agency a while ago. When we watched the ballistics testing the 147 HST was just a few thousands of an inch smaller at full expansion than the .45 acp. was. It had the same depth of penetration as well. So a lesser recoiling round with the same expansion and penetration of a .45 we chose to stay with 9. Also for a few more reasons. Some of which were neighboring agencies carry the same Glocks so in the event of a tactical Jesus you have magazine interchangeability. Smaller officers are recoil sensitive, it easier for me as an instructor to fix shooting issues. Then the cost factor so I can get them out to train. The 45 is a great round and a 200 grain +P or 185 +P has some serious punch u so does a 10mm which in my opinion is a underrated round for the performance of a ballistically equivalent to a 41 mag with the right load.
Was the .45 using HST bullets also?
Johnny Yuma
Operator
45 will always be superior for one reason.
It takes one to stop a threat.
None of the experts ever say that about a 9. 357 mag, the man stopper of the 70s was way better than the 9.
Why did everyone change? same reason the military did. (A) cheaper ammo (B) any dumb asp can use one.
Cops and military folks have not had enough range time to be good at shooting.
In come the no hammer, lots of weaker rounds to try and make up to the 45ACP.
Just like the Japs tired to make a motorcycle that looks and sounds like a Harley, everyone is going overboard to make the rounds for the 9mm almost as good as the 45ACP, so you can have lots of rounds to pray & spray.
Thats why all the you tubers always use HPs in the 9s and FMJ in the 45s.
It takes one to stop a threat.
None of the experts ever say that about a 9. 357 mag, the man stopper of the 70s was way better than the 9.
Why did everyone change? same reason the military did. (A) cheaper ammo (B) any dumb asp can use one.
Cops and military folks have not had enough range time to be good at shooting.
In come the no hammer, lots of weaker rounds to try and make up to the 45ACP.
Just like the Japs tired to make a motorcycle that looks and sounds like a Harley, everyone is going overboard to make the rounds for the 9mm almost as good as the 45ACP, so you can have lots of rounds to pray & spray.
Thats why all the you tubers always use HPs in the 9s and FMJ in the 45s.
KillerFord1977
Emissary
I disagree.
Its all about shot placement.
A poor shot with a .45 is no different than a 9mm
Shot placement is key.
I can kill you as quick with a .22LR as a .45.
I’m a .45 fan and own them, but a trained person can kill regardless of the caliber. Factor is velocity and distance.
Welcome to the forum.
I’ve said this before. A 16” shell from a battleship, a 155mm howitzer and a .45 cal have all been survived. Its shot placement that counts. Not the caliber
rcurtner
Hellcat
Welcome to the forum from South Texas.
Bassbob
Emissary
You tubers eh ?
The reason .357 had/has a higher percentage of one shot stops than .44 is the same reason why the 9mm has a higher percentage currently than .45. Care to guess the reason ?
No one I know who Carries 1911s/.45 ACP is carrying with ball ammo. If yours won’t run self defense ammo take it to a smith. It’s that simple.
HansGruber
SAINT
Horse feces.
If .45 “only takes one”, as you falsely claim, why did it take 14 rounds to drop the bad guy in this incident?
Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty
www.police1.com
Note—there were many sold hits to center torso as well as the head.
Last edited:
rcurtner
Hellcat
Welcome back Hans.Horse feces.
If .45 “only takes one”, as you falsely claim, why did it take 14 rounds to drop the bad guy in this incident?
Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job
Before the call that changed Sergeant Timothy Gramins’ life forever, he typically carried 47 rounds of handgun ammunition on his person while on duty
Note—there were many sold hits to center torso as well as the head.
Sld1959
Ronin
The old myth that a .45 will not run HP is way old and entrenched in some minds. The biggest issue with 1911s and reliability is and was magazines, especially with 9mm 1911s and the old spacer magazines. With modern good quality magazines the 9mm is just as reliable as the .45 acp version which is to say, Uber reliable with hollowpoints and ball.
Yes, when hp first became widely available some semi autos needed the feed ramp tweaked a bit. And all have since made manufacturing changes accordingly.
contrary to what tv shows do, the 45 will not flip a person backwards head over heels and toss them clean out of the building. That is in reality only Harry Potter wizard wands.
Have worked at a meat processing plant during hunting seasons many times and seen damage from all manner of handguns and the damage differences between most handgun rounds is surprisingly light. Until at least you start getting into the big boys .44 mag and up.
Yes, when hp first became widely available some semi autos needed the feed ramp tweaked a bit. And all have since made manufacturing changes accordingly.
contrary to what tv shows do, the 45 will not flip a person backwards head over heels and toss them clean out of the building. That is in reality only Harry Potter wizard wands.
Have worked at a meat processing plant during hunting seasons many times and seen damage from all manner of handguns and the damage differences between most handgun rounds is surprisingly light. Until at least you start getting into the big boys .44 mag and up.
Annihilator
Hellion
Back when I carried my Colt combat commander, I used the Speer 200gr flying ashtray ammo, never an issue with it, fed every time, now this was back in the 80’s, just sayin, I have always mentioned on here, to me shot placement is more important then how many rounds you carry
HansGruber
SAINT
It’s “ballistically equivalent” to .41 mag ONLY if you cherry-pick the hottest 10mm load compared to a watered-down .41 mag.
It’s the equivalent of comparing a boutique (Underwood, Buffalo Bore, etc) .40 S&W to a blaster 10mm—ballistically equivalent, no? By your logic, it is.
Apples to apples—hottest to hottest? .41 magnum utterly smokes 10mm; and any honest comparison shows it.
Johnny Yuma
Operator
Do not tell the 0-4 Ive shot with one. They dead, one shot, some times two.
Nine is 4-6 minimum, not my numbers, the FBI which states MOST armed exchanged use 1-3 bullets fired.
and your right, if you can use it correctly and hit stuff, you need more practice.
Speaking of practice, I started shooting 1911s when I was 12. Overseas by age 17.
Id say Ive had enough practice.
Let see, the 1911 lasted form 1911 to 1985. The Barretta to 2014, they blown up. The fix was make them blow up forward so as to not to take the face off of the soldier firing it.
Now the P320, Nuff Said.
BTW I do not own a 1911, have not used one in decades. I found something way better.