Ayoob: Is It Time to Retire the 1911?

[javbike]

From my place of ignorance having held a 1911 but never shooting it, I like the straight-forward simplicity of the 1911, but I'm curious about the devotees.

Curious enough to buy one, but since I've just inherited a bunch of guns ( around ten rifles and maybe even ten pistols ) and I'm sure I'll hear how I don't need one. But she just bought me a .44 mag pistol. Hard to figure what the moral of the story is.

What's that thing about asking for forgiveness instead of permission ?

What kind of 44 let’s see a pic please

 

[last2brake]

What kind of 44 let’s see a pic please

Ruger Vaquero ....

 

[SimonRL]

I think I have already retired the 1911. Still carry 45ACP, in a more modern form.
Sig P220. Safety, We dont need no stinking safety!

No question the Sig P series is a solid alternate for the 1911. With the way the 2011 market is exploding it will be a long time before JMB’s wunderkind drifts off into the sunset.

 

[CEW]

The 1911 is like some kind of addiction and used to recover from the plastic in the environment right now, even in your blood... Gotta have metal be it carbon or stainless just some kind of steel, must be an iron thing. Oh, I like the Ruger .44 Mag and the only .44 I have ever shot. Once was enough and that one looks like a Cannon. Still smaller than .451", LOL. But one Hell of a round and not too many things that can stand against it...

Ended up with a couple more 1911s for the collection, recently. Couldn't help myself, I might need help or the Bride thinks so.

 

[Biggfoot44]

From my place of ignorance having held a 1911 but never shooting it, I like the straight-forward simplicity of the 1911, but I'm curious about the devotees.

Curious enough to buy one, but since I've just inherited a bunch of guns ( around ten rifles and maybe even ten pistols ) and I'm sure I'll hear how I don't need one. But she just bought me a .44 mag pistol. Hard to figure what the moral of the story is.

What's that thing about asking for forgiveness instead of permission ?

Once upon a time ( when pre war Government Models were just Old Guns , and not collectibles) acquired my first 1911 ( early A1 , aftermarket Nickle , British proofs ) .

It was OK . I liked it well enough , but wasn't too clear to me all the adoration. And then , l had extended possession of GF 's father , later FIL , RIP ) 's 1911 .

OMG , this is perfect ! Like it was made just to fit my hand .

The difference was the Flat mainspring , and Long Trigger .

[ Not saying Flat / Long is the best for everyone, but it absolutely is * for me * .]

 

[HayesGreener]

I am amused at the reaction of young officers at LEOSA quals in a sea of Glocks when I draw my 1911 and outshoot them. It draws curiosity. At first I thought they were impressed with my shooting but they are really regarding my gun and me as an anachronism. I hear mutterings of "grandpa" and "old fart" now and again but I still outshoot the whippersnappers. The LE instructors have commented, "I wish our officers could shoot like that."

I have no concerns about magazine capacity, I think 9 fat .45 bullets and two reloads is plenty for out here on the ranch and occasional trips to the store and restaurants. I suppose if I were still working the street I would be drawn to a double stack, but then I came up in an era when we hit the street with a 6 round revolver plus two speedloaders and felt well armed. I am reminded of a remark by Jeff Cooper on magazine capacity. "How many times do you intend to miss?"

 

[Bear103]

I am amused at the reaction of young officers at LEOSA quals in a sea of Glocks when I draw my 1911 and outshoot them. It draws curiosity. At first I thought they were impressed with my shooting but they are really regarding my gun and me as an anachronism. I hear mutterings of "grandpa" and "old fart" now and again but I still outshoot the whippersnappers. The LE instructors have commented, "I wish our officers could shoot like that."

I have no concerns about magazine capacity, I think 9 fat .45 bullets and two reloads is plenty for out here on the ranch and occasional trips to the store and restaurants. I suppose if I were still working the street I would be drawn to a double stack, but then I came up in an era when we hit the street with a 6 round revolver plus two speedloaders and felt well armed. I am reminded of a remark by Jeff Cooper on magazine capacity. "How many times do you intend to miss?"

I can relate I have 7 1/2 years until retirement and I’m the old guy. Now I have a couple of guys who do fine with the G-17s and I have both single and double stack 1911/2011. Both with optics mounts and lights so some of the younger officers give me a side glance. It’s kinda funny because I learned from older guys like you. Now I’m teaching them.

 

[CEW]

I am amused at the reaction of young officers at LEOSA quals in a sea of Glocks when I draw my 1911 and outshoot them. It draws curiosity. At first I thought they were impressed with my shooting but they are really regarding my gun and me as an anachronism. I hear mutterings of "grandpa" and "old fart" now and again but I still outshoot the whippersnappers. The LE instructors have commented, "I wish our officers could shoot like that."

I have no concerns about magazine capacity, I think 9 fat .45 bullets and two reloads is plenty for out here on the ranch and occasional trips to the store and restaurants. I suppose if I were still working the street I would be drawn to a double stack, but then I came up in an era when we hit the street with a 6 round revolver plus two speedloaders and felt well armed. I am reminded of a remark by Jeff Cooper on magazine capacity. "How many times do you intend to miss?"

I reassemble that remark... But was fortunate enough to have replaced my six-shooter with one of them newfangled semi-autos in DA/SA in the mid 80's. Yeah, it is fun with the occasionally lighting up all the targets in seconds in the big boy's caliber, to see you have shocked the preconceptions of a couple people around you. With iron-sights no less. Can't tell if it is the old fart or the old tech that gets em. Give me a 2011 in 9mm and maybe a couple tens faster, but I can just flow with one in .22LR into under 2 seconds on five targets... But remember we were required to shoot to higher standards back in the day with limited ammo available. Hell, there is more in one mag now than our entire load out and they have a red dot. Lucky Kids... My secret is to wear cheaters so I can see the front sight.

 

[Johnny Yuma]

the 2011 market

Too fat and heavy for my old hands. Id droop half way thru the mag.

 

[MistaKwick]

Mr. Ayoob highlights some of the more critical benefits of 1911 carry. I'm from Gen X and I prefer carrying and shooting a 1911. I have several SA pistols, and a number of other manufacturers and my personal favorite is a customized SA 1911. I have around 20k rounds through it, and it's 100% reliable, extremely accurate, and very comfortable. It handles a wide range of ammo types reliably. It has had a good amount of maintenance over the years and some enhancements. It a few breakin stoppages when factory new, and the ambi safety broke and was promptly replaced by Springfield Armory warranty. I had SA Custom Shop do some excellent work. My experience with SA warranty service made me a return customer. I had also received a XD magazine warranty replacement on a very old XD and I cannot say enough good about SA personnel, really wonderful people.

My only complaint about the 1911A1 is the weight. It's a better combat handgun IMO than anything I have used. The Sig P320/M18/M17 are tight on it's heels if they can get the grip module grip angle and texture to that of the Polymer 80 P320 grip module. I prefer the M18 3.9"

I would like to see SA make a Lightweight Commander with the EMP enhancements. Full size grip module made of polymer with a FCG module with better rails for the 1911A1 upper. Dual captive CroSil recoil spring with stainless guide rod. Drop the bore axis down into the grip module in combination with slide modifications. Modernize the slide assembly with quick change sights, optic mount plate, external extractor, and bring the barrel down to 4". I would also suggest to offer grip modules with single stack and double stack options. The slide and barrel can be coated stainless to reduce weight. And give it a alpha numeric designation and a crazy name so the military will want to buy it..

Get a Dan Wesson Guardian: alloy frame, 4 inch, super accurate, beautiful, zero MIM parts

 

[MistaKwick]

NO! Do not retire the 1911 or .45 ACP! I have the utmost respect for Massad Ayoob, his experience, training, and expertise. Thank you Massad, for this excellent article specifically on the 1911, and generally on .45 ACP ammunition. I would carry my 1911 except I am a fan of more ammo. Allow me to share that in 30 years of law enforcement for a large California metropolitan department, I've seen many Officer-Involved-Shootings (OIS) involving use of .38 caliber and later, 9mm ammunition. While 9mm is certainly better than the .38 caliber (semi-jacketed lead hollow point) wheel gun I was originally issued, in many cases, a suspect shot with .38 caliber or 9mm simply did not go down (sans a head shot). Even with multiple hits, sometimes the suspect continued to fight, flee, and just stay alive. Just witnessing some of these shootings and seeing suspects hit, fall down, and (incredibily!) get up to run and/or fight again, has jaded my opinion on 9mm ammo. While there have been incredible advances in 9mm ammunition, the 9mm projectile is essentially the same diameter as .38 caliber, albeit with improvements. Allow me to openly declare; I have no empirical evidence to support my opinion. However, I do not believe suspects would have continued to fight, flee, and live if a .45 ACP 230 grain hollow point round were used. I carry a Glock 21 as my EDC loaded with Federal, Personal Defense, (Bonded) .45 ACP+P, 230 Grain, Hollow Point Ammo and always carry a spare magazine. I carry the +P as my research indicates 45 ACP ammunition can, in some cases, be too slow for full expansion, as it was designed. The +P, being higher pressure and faster in feet-per-second (fps), will (hopefully) solve any expansion related issues, based on my research and my humble opinion. I could not agree more with those who say that "shot placement" is the key in any shooting situation where you want to take a suspect down. Without doubt, shot placement is more important than most caliber and ammo decisions. I practice regularly with 230 grain ammo and I shoot center mass followed up with head shots for every two to center mass. I have no illusions that in the frantic shooting situation, there may not be time or opportunity to take a controlled head shot but I still have more faith in .45 ACP+P for its knock down and stay down power, no matter where as long as its center mass. Lastly, with thugs being high on meth and a variety of other chemicals, you simply cannot have too much knockdown, penetration, or fire power. I wish all law enforcement would carry the .45 ACP+P but politics are politics. Having said all this, allow me to say I would carry a 10mm if not for the excessive danger of over-penetration. However, when hiking in bear country, I carry 10mm. My contribution on this topic; for what its worth. Stay safe!

thank you
do you have recommendations for 45ACP+P ammo?

 

[MistaKwick]

I own several firearms made in Turkey and was stationed there when I was in the Army many moons ago. Them and the Phillipines produce some fine pieces of hardware, in my humble opinion!

I have 3 Tisas 1911's and a MAC Meusoc made by Tisas. Very nice and I'm sorry to say, better quality than a Colt Lightweight Commander (costing 3 times the price of my $299 Tisas) that required 2 trips to the gunsmith to fix (feeding and ejecting issues, no less), better accuracy than my Garrison.

That said, because Turkey has been supporting a certain Middle Eastern terrorist organization against the only democracy over there, so I'm not going to expand my Tisas collection and will try to buy American again (or Bul Armory) even though I'll have to shell out far more money.