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Gun Control May 17

I’m only going to give one reply here on this, it was a horrendous act, my thoughts go out to all who were affected by this tragedy, yes this person should have never got any guns, but every one knows that this current administration will use this to push there gun control agenda, even though NY has some of the strictest gun laws there is. To me it’s sad that every time there is a shooting, all they (left) want is to push gun control instead of mourning and helping the victims and there families.
 
Steverino said:
So should we be assuming from here on out that assassins like this will be wearing body armor? If so, what type of round would you carry in, shall we say, a concealed 9 mm? If a penetrating round, that might increase likelihood of collateral damage, so . . .
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A 9mm will fail against body armor; dot, period, end of story.

Don’t focus on a wünderbullet; focus on being able to hit an orange-sized moving target at 25 yards—or farther.
 
Steverino said:
So either .45 or 9mm with head shot, not center mass?
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If they are obviously armored—yes.

The most common type of armor you’ll likely see is a plate carrier (because it’s cheap and effective) with III or better.

I don’t care what you’re carrying, if it’s a handgun, it won’t punch through it. You’re gonna have to hit where it ain’t.

The armpit is also a solid shot, if presented…if you have a properly performing round in your handgun, you should also be able to punch through the bi/tricep and humerus into the chest.

There’s the pelvis, but…it’s a low percentage stopper with most handguns.
 
Steverino said:
So either .45 or 9mm with head shot, not center mass?
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Try that while you are under fire and clearly outgunned. Like that poor security guard you are going to get one chance to get it right. In that crucial moment he followed years of training as an LEO and shot center mass and it cost him.

It’s easy for us all to talk about how we would do this or that, but given the millions of people carrying at any given time it just doesn’t happen. The few times it has don’t even move the needle statistically.
 
SimonRL said:
Try that while you are under fire and clearly outgunned. Like that poor security guard you are going to get one chance to get it right. In that crucial moment he followed years of training as an LEO and shot center mass and it cost him.

It’s easy for us all to talk about how we would do this or that, but given the millions of people carrying at any given time it just doesn’t happen. The few times it has don’t even move the needle statistically.
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I guess that’s why I say “practice that shot”.

If you’ve never tried, you probably won’t make it, as you said, under stress.

But if you’ve made it in practice, many times…it gives a lot more confidence in making it when the chips are down.
 
Steverino said:
So should we be assuming from here on out that assassins like this will be wearing body armor? If so, what type of round would you carry in, shall we say, a concealed 9 mm? If a penetrating round, that might increase likelihood of collateral damage, so . . .
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I would never assume a threat is going to be equipped with body armor or other type of protective gear. If a sudden threat pops up in front of a normal armed citizen, most people no matter their shooting level don't have the time or reaction to totally access a threat to look for a weak spot on the threat. Most armed civilians will aim center mass because of the higher likelihood of making contact with your rounds and how much that idea was ingrained in us when it comes to a self defense encounter.

There are a few pistol rounds that can defeat soft body armor like the 5.7x28 but the chances of defeating a modern center mass trauma plate are extremely slim even with most rifle calibers. A non penetrating shot to a soft panel on someone wearing body armor can still cause broken bones and other injuries.

You can't train for every scenario out there and you can't carry an AR on your back everywhere you go. Unless you're living in a gang infested cesspool like Chicago or Detroit you'll most likely never run into an active shooter event.

Someone saying they will just aim for the head to take out a threat is living in fantasy land especially in a close quarters fight where fractions of a second count.
 
HansGruber said:
I guess that’s why I say “practice that shot”.

If you’ve never tried, you probably won’t make it, as you said, under stress.

But if you’ve made it in practice, many times…it gives a lot more confidence in making it when the chips are down.
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Thanks for all the responses and suggestions. 👌👍 A lot for me to mull over 🤔 Have some training and instruction coming up, and I will definitely be asking a lot of questions on all the issues raised here.
 
I made the unfortunate choice to watch the helmet cam video of the shooter. The first 5 or so victims had no chance, even if armed...it was very fast. I was surprised how many went down with only 1 shot. It's still haunting me. I am currently rethinking my carry methods.
 
10mmLife said:
I would never assume a threat is going to be equipped with body armor or other type of protective gear. If a sudden threat pops up in front of a normal armed citizen, most people no matter their shooting level don't have the time or reaction to totally access a threat to look for a weak spot on the threat. Most armed civilians will aim center mass because of the higher likelihood of making contact with your rounds and how much that idea was ingrained in us when it comes to a self defense encounter.

There are a few pistol rounds that can defeat soft body armor like the 5.7x28 but the chances of defeating a modern center mass trauma plate are extremely slim even with most rifle calibers. A non penetrating shot to a soft panel on someone wearing body armor can still cause broken bones and other injuries.

You can't train for every scenario out there and you can't carry an AR on your back everywhere you go. Unless you're living in a gang infested cesspool like Chicago or Detroit you'll most likely never run into an active shooter event.

Someone saying they will just aim for the head to take out a threat is living in fantasy land especially in a close quarters fight where fractions of a second count.
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So what do you do in the scenario mentioned?

Just give up, because your COM shots aren’t gonna work? Uselessly bounce rounds off the plate?

Or try to peg the head?

I know what I’m doing.
 
HansGruber said:
So what do you do in the scenario mentioned?

Just give up, because your COM shots aren’t gonna work? Uselessly bounce rounds off the plate?

Or try to peg the head?

I know what I’m doing.
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If you're trying to imply that I said someone should give up your mistaken. What I'm saying is there's no guarantee you'll be able to hit a small moving head sized target that appears even smaller when distance is factored in.

The point I was making is that the general armed population will aim center mass first. In a 1 on 1 encounter where you have the killers full attention and he has a rifle against your pistol good luck with your false sense of bravado where you'll ”just shoot them in the head" Hollywood movies look awesome on the big screen but don't equate to real life adrenaline dumps while taking shots in you're direction.

I'm not sure what your experience is with having bullets flying in your direction but I have personally been shot at a few times in my life while growing up in a high crime city in the 90's.

I'm not trying to turn this into a banana stretching contest so take from this what you will.

Always fight & fight fiercely!
 
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I don't have time for a long article right now but I have researched countless mass shootings and have taught many classes on surviving mass shootings. I can tell you that most mass shooters gave warning signs long before they picked up the gun. Some were subtle and went unrecognized by the people who saw them. Some were glaring and were ignored, or nothing was done about the individual. The Marjorie Stoneman Douglas school shooting is a perfect example of an incompetent response to a real known threat. I am certain that a number of mass shootings could have been prevented if the right people had been paying attention.
 
HansGruber said:
If they are obviously armored—yes.

The most common type of armor you’ll likely see is a plate carrier (because it’s cheap and effective) with III or better.

I don’t care what you’re carrying, if it’s a handgun, it won’t punch through it. You’re gonna have to hit where it ain’t.

The armpit is also a solid shot, if presented…if you have a properly performing round in your handgun, you should also be able to punch through the bi/tricep and humerus into the chest.

There’s the pelvis, but…it’s a low percentage stopper with most handguns.
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Disagree with this for sure. Unless you have some actual stats that show people getting shot in the pelvic region and not going down.

In a real world situation you’re going to have a fraction of a second to decide what to do. I would take a head shot if a reasonable shot presents itself, otherwise I’m going for the balls. Definitely a much higher chance than shooting for the armpit.
 
Bassbob said:
Pelvic girdle. Bigger target, much easier to hit when it’s moving. Of course if you find you have the time and a good shot and reasonable cover the headshot is a definite game ender.
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I’ve been following this and I have one thought no mentioned, a lot of good information on where to shoot but what about what to shoot? We all know AR’s are aluminum so what about trying to shoot the gun? One or two well placed rounds will completely disable the gun.
Just my thought.
 
Keystone19250 said:
I’ve been following this and I have one thought no mentioned, a lot of good information on where to shoot but what about what to shoot? We all know AR’s are aluminum so what about trying to shoot the gun? One or two well placed rounds will completely disable the gun.
Just my thought.
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Seems like a harder shot than a headshot ? Especially with a pistol any further away than 10-15 yards.
 
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