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Have You Cleared Your House?

KASHIRA-3

Elite
I seriously doubt that its really going to matter if you have a AR9, Beretta92, M1 carbine, 357 revolver or a lever action 30/30. Unless you are using an exceedingly underpowered or ultra low capacity weapon, its probably not going to matter enough to talk about.
 

Bassbob

SAINT
What matters is that you are profficient with whatever firearm you are using.

We can wade into the weeds about caliber, type, etc.. and stats but that's totally pointless. The fact is statistically it doesn't matter much if the gun is even loaded because the odds of a home invasion are slim. The odds of multiple perps, reloading, optics etc.. are exceedingly irrelevant as well. Nevertheless, you could be that 3% so better to prepare unnecessarily than to wind up an irrelevant statistic.
 

the obsrver

Master Class
I seriously doubt that its really going to matter if you have a AR9, Beretta92, M1 carbine, 357 revolver or a lever action 30/30. Unless you are using an exceedingly underpowered or ultra low capacity weapon, its probably not going to matter enough to talk about.
You think it does not matter? Tell that to any solider who did sweeps in the middle east. Trust me it matters. I am not going to try and move around my house in the dark with a lever action rifle against two or more perps. I mean if they come in and announce to me that they are alone and are telling the truth, I would grab a single shot 4.10.with home defense rounds. But since I really would not trust them at that point, I think I feel more comfortable with not having to reload. Over penetration is a huge deal if you have other good guys in another room. If you hit your target, you want it to stop there and not take out someone else on the other side of a wall.
Or can you not see how a green tip 556 might not be the best thing to sweep your house with if you have children in other rooms during a chaotic moment shortly after you just woke up? Not to mention there is a lot more real estate on a small carbine for accessories.
You do what you want, I am not arguing. I just know that people tend to practice at indoor ranges or outdoors in good weather and not in the dark less then a minute after waking up. I feel a little better knowing what I have.
Not to mention as I said it has other tangibles that make it a good little back pack fire arm. But I think anyone that owns one soon figures out just how good it could be at home defense.
 
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Bassbob

SAINT
I hear commonly, " My pistol is there to get me to my rifle". I don't necessarily disagree, BUT, in reality it's very highly unlikely that you are going to have time to grab a handy pistol and make your way to wherever the hell you stashed your rifle, then switch guns and engage a target. Whatever firearm you envision as your primary HD weapon should be the one most readily available to you as you sleep.

Which weapon is best suited for that task is subjective. A high capacity handgun works. So does a short barreled, high capacity semi auto or pump shotgun. So does an AR pistol. So does a pair of large, very protective dogs. So does a well thought out security system with lights, cameras and a deafening horn. If a guy comes through a window and is overwhelmed by flashing red, white and green strobe lights and an alarm so loud you can't hear yourself think, he's probably not going to go tiptoeing through your wife's jewelry box.

Whatever you plan to employ, just be sure you practice with it.
 

the obsrver

Master Class
I have helped people learn to shoot mainly for the soul purpose of home defense. They really do not like to shoot. They do not see it as a hobby. They do not carry. So pretty much for home defense.
One thing I always do when their interest starts to wane and they start to feel pretty confident in their abilities is to take them to the range (outdoor) and tell them to take the ear muffs off and do it. Just the shock of how loud it is often times makes them much much slower and less accurate. Think about it, it is kind of like a percussion grenade if someone has never done it and is not ready for it. I do not recommend to practice often without ear protection in an effort to overcome this, but just like how people tend to try to compensate for recoil, they do for the sound too. Then we can talk about ballistics and subsonic ammo or choice of ammo and muzzle devices should they choose. Because to help someone learn to defend their home goes much further than point shoot and hit a small circle.
 
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the obsrver

Master Class
I hear commonly, " My pistol is there to get me to my rifle". I don't necessarily disagree, BUT, in reality it's very highly unlikely that you are going to have time to grab a handy pistol and make your way to wherever the hell you stashed your rifle, then switch guns and engage a target. Whatever firearm you envision as your primary HD weapon should be the one most readily available to you as you sleep.

Which weapon is best suited for that task is subjective. A high capacity handgun works. So does a short barreled, high capacity semi auto or pump shotgun. So does an AR pistol. So does a pair of large, very protective dogs. So does a well thought out security system with lights, cameras and a deafening horn. If a guy comes through a window and is overwhelmed by flashing red, white and green strobe lights and an alarm so loud you can't hear yourself think, he's probably not going to go tiptoeing through your wife's jewelry box.

Whatever you plan to employ, just be sure you practice with it.
Yeah, I have a couple of shot guns and maybe my 4.10, but no way I am going to go around securing the house after an event with a 5ft long shot gun. ( most hallways are what 3ft wide??)I am going to move fast and deliberate to make sure the situation is contained.
On the other hand, a 12 gauge would be fine if I intended to just stay put and "hidden" and call 911 and wait it out. That might not be an option if you have children or others in the house you need to secure also.
You are so correct in your statement about being proficient in no matter what your plan is, because you have the benefit of it being your home and can probably walk around it in the dark, even when half asleep.
 
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Bassbob

SAINT
because you have the benefit of it being your home and can probably walk around it in the dark, even when half asleep.


If you can't, you should. This is something you should practice as well. Just like having a plan for a fire or a flood or a tornado. Drill these things until it's second nature. Or don't cry when you get caught flat footed because it will be your own fault.
 

the obsrver

Master Class
If you can't, you should. This is something you should practice as well. Just like having a plan for a fire or a flood or a tornado. Drill these things until it's second nature. Or don't cry when you get caught flat footed because it will be your own fault.
Yeah and if you have others in the house, teach them to hit the floor in the event of a situation. Kids tend to wake up and wander around and find mom and dad when half asleep and that is the last thing you need. Even with almost every precaution a couple layers of sheet rock is not going to stop even bird shot.
Like I said, there is a lot more to home defense than just point and shoot. It is an education in and of itself.
 

C. Sumpin

Custom
I hear commonly, " My pistol is there to get me to my rifle". I don't necessarily disagree, BUT, in reality it's very highly unlikely that you are going to have time to grab a handy pistol and make your way to wherever the hell you stashed your rifle, then switch guns and engage a target. Whatever firearm you envision as your primary HD weapon should be the one most readily available to you as you sleep.


Whatever you plan to employ, just be sure you practice with it.

When I turn in for the night, in addition to securing the perimeter, checking locks, ect., within reach will be my cell, flashlight, Saint, frogsticker, at the minimum. Don't plan on having to make my way to anything (but perhaps the perp).

In my particular case, I am delaying and may never instruct my wife in self defense (with firearms). Why?
She is high end nervous at times, spooks easily, and I'm not certain she can/will exercise the collected discipline necessary to do the paramount thing before squeezing the trigger: IDENTIFY THE TARGET!

We have all heard the horror stories of family members accidentally deep sixing a loved one for failing the above protocol.

Those of you with well trained spouses/team mates need to understand that anyone, including yourself, can, when under
slow motion inducing pressure/stress, "see" something that isn't there, or see something that is there and misidentify it.
One scenario that can lead to mishaps is "meeting" or coming face to face with your armed partner in the "house clearing" exercise: train to avoid this.

There have been cases of well experienced hunters "seeing" (what the expected to see) a deer when a person is what they shot. One can practice muscle memory, train to a highly skilled level, but, IMHO, the psychological stability/mental preparedness/discipline quotient of the armed individual surpasses make, calibre, accessories, load, and all the rest of the options. What happens in your head when all goes south and terror goes to your core is the difference and there is no fully or complete way to train and prepare for it.
 

Bassbob

SAINT
When I turn in for the night, in addition to securing the perimeter, checking locks, ect., within reach will be my cell, flashlight, Saint, frogsticker, at the minimum. Don't plan on having to make my way to anything (but perhaps the perp).

In my particular case, I am delaying and may never instruct my wife in self defense (with firearms). Why?
She is high end nervous at times, spooks easily, and I'm not certain she can/will exercise the collected discipline necessary to do the paramount thing before squeezing the trigger: IDENTIFY THE TARGET!

We have all heard the horror stories of family members accidentally deep sixing a loved one for failing the above protocol.

Those of you with well trained spouses/team mates need to understand that anyone, including yourself, can, when under
slow motion inducing pressure/stress, "see" something that isn't there, or see something that is there and misidentify it.
One scenario that can lead to mishaps is "meeting" or coming face to face with your armed partner in the "house clearing" exercise: train to avoid this.

There have been cases of well experienced hunters "seeing" (what the expected to see) a deer when a person is what they shot. One can practice muscle memory, train to a highly skilled level, but, IMHO, the psychological stability/mental preparedness/discipline quotient of the armed individual surpasses make, calibre, accessories, load, and all the rest of the options. What happens in your head when all goes south and terror goes to your core is the difference and there is no fully or complete way to train and prepare for it.
So I assume you have trained or instructed her to move to cover and stay there?
 

the obsrver

Master Class
So I assume you have trained or instructed her to move to cover and stay there?
That's where I am with my wife. The way our house is set up, all she has to do is take position and cover one door. We do not have kids so that is a non issue otherwise I would have more work cut out for me. The door she covers is basically all outside walls from her vantage point, so I do not need to worry about her crossfire as I exit the other door and clear the other rooms. Once clear I let her know and I do not enter the room from either door, but have her come out.
We both have lots of room for improvement and always will, but to me that is half the fun and challenge.
 

C. Sumpin

Custom
Bob,
Flexibility is the name of the game. Depends on what unfolds. We train for her to follow me, use illumination if asked, otherwise follow my commands. (Here is where someone will say "you are placing your spouse in danger") We also have a "starting point" for her to cover in place. She has good instincts so there is no rule that she can not relocate or communicate depending on the evolution of the situation. She has a particular identifying device that I can audibly/visually know her and/or her location. There are other details but perhaps you can see that we are trying.
 

the obsrver

Master Class
When I turn in for the night, in addition to securing the perimeter, checking locks, ect., within reach will be my cell, flashlight, Saint, frogsticker, at the minimum. Don't plan on having to make my way to anything (but perhaps the perp).

In my particular case, I am delaying and may never instruct my wife in self defense (with firearms). Why?
She is high end nervous at times, spooks easily, and I'm not certain she can/will exercise the collected discipline necessary to do the paramount thing before squeezing the trigger: IDENTIFY THE TARGET!

We have all heard the horror stories of family members accidentally deep sixing a loved one for failing the above protocol.

Those of you with well trained spouses/team mates need to understand that anyone, including yourself, can, when under
slow motion inducing pressure/stress, "see" something that isn't there, or see something that is there and misidentify it.
One scenario that can lead to mishaps is "meeting" or coming face to face with your armed partner in the "house clearing" exercise: train to avoid this.

There have been cases of well experienced hunters "seeing" (what the expected to see) a deer when a person is what they shot. One can practice muscle memory, train to a highly skilled level, but, IMHO, the psychological stability/mental preparedness/discipline quotient of the armed individual surpasses make, calibre, accessories, load, and all the rest of the options. What happens in your head when all goes south and terror goes to your core is the difference and there is no fully or complete way to train and prepare for it.

My wife is not all that good with stress either. I feel as though starting simple and very basic with training her gives her the confidence to overcome that nervousness. I mean if starting with hiding in the closet with a bat is her comfort level then I start there. But I do make them start somewhere in the ability to defend themselves and it grows from there. Confidence is the only way I have found to overcome nervousness.
 

KASHIRA-3

Elite
You think it does not matter?

we are not talking about a soldier fighting within the context of war. There are reasons that planes, tanks, ships, missiles, machine guns and all sorts of hyper destructive weapon are used in war-fighting. What we are talking about is often a very limited engagement, at rather close range with few rounds fired, 2 or 3 total combatants which are similarly armed. Within this context.. NO, I do not think it matter much in regards to [power]. Anything can matter but when I say not much, I simply mean not to any degree that is likely to sway the outcome or be the singular cause of failure. If using a AR9 for a home defense weapons makes you happy... I think its great. There are certainly some inherent handicaps that are commonly associated with the use of a long-gun in CQB. Handicaps which are often mitigated by the assistance of additional defenders. As a lone defender, I would not likely select a rifle for a Home Defense weapon. Others might, many do.. and that is fine. A rifle will certainly do the job. As I said, there are some handicaps to using something with a barrel which will proceed your movement ( if movement is called for). Rifle retention techniques often lean toward yielding the weapon in hand to hand and transitioning to a secondary weapon. Rifles are harder to retain than more wieldy items like a handgun. At least in my opinion anyway. I have always had good luck retaining a handgun during retention training but do not recall ever retaining a rifle that someone else has a hold of. I have had an instructor mop the floor with me by using my own sling against me. Others can do what they want as everyone has a different circumstance. I can only share what I think by using myself as a template. I wont use a rifle as a HD weapon and will opt for something much more wieldy, easier to retain in a struggle and something easily used one handed.

Again, unless we are talking about a hand to hand struggle over a weapon, I dont think it much matters what firearm you are using in such a limited engagement as we typically see in a citizen home defense scenario. That is so long as it is not substantially underpowered or of exceedingly low capacity like a derringer. If a person has a 6 shot 357/38, a M1 Carbine, a AR9, a lever action 30/30 or a 7 shot 1911.. I dont think it much matters in regards to [power]. If you are using a single shot 410 or a 2 shot derringer or something that fires a 22LR, I might feel differently.

People often want to feel like what they personally want to do is actually relevant. Perhaps the difference between a 30 shot AR15 and a 7 shot level action 30/30 could make a different in a carefully constructed scenario. Never the less, I doubt that the difference is going to be what the overwhelming majority of home defense actions hinge upon. Could it? sure.. but I doubt it personally. People who are fretting over this 9mm or that 9mm, this 357 over that 5.56, are probably worried about the wrong thing. I say that while excluding concerns regarding overpenetration. Over penetration could probably be a thread on its own but I am not addressing these concerns in this thread. They dont seem to be part of the topic so I will leave it alone. In my rural setting with only me and the wife ( in the same room), I am not personally concerned with over penetration. I expect that a projectile that hits a wall will likely keep going a good ways.

If people want to worry about something that will probably matter, worry about detecting the danger as early as possible and making good tactical decisions which exploit conditions in your favor. Worry about having the mental grit and clarity to get things done properly. Worry about keeping intruders out to begin with. Worry about having the type of poor curb appeal that causes them to pick someone elses home. Worry about trying to initiate a help response sooner rather than later. I could go on and on but the bottom line here is that I am not a proponent of worrying about things such as having a 9mm or a 12ga. No matter what you decide to use, I hope you are proficient with it and have a good idea of tactics surround that particular platform.
 
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KASHIRA-3

Elite
My pistol is there to get me to my rifle

I tend to agree with what Bob touched on. I have always felt that the weapon you start with is very likely going to be the weapon you finish with. The whole "fighting your way to your rifle" may sound nifty and hint at some level of romanticism but I do not consider the saying to be serious. IMO, transitioning to other weapon during a fight is something that very rarely ever happens outside of sustained war fighting. I wont lie, I have a weatherby 20 gauge squirreled away in the bedroom closet but its not really part of the HD plan outside of being a very last ditch option when everything else has crapped out. On the nightstand right now is a Springfield XDM loaded with 20 rounds of 9mm. It will have to do as I have no delusions about fighting my way to a secondary weapon. My shotgun is primarily for overly aggressive 4 legged predators that do ( on occasion) harass us.
 

the obsrver

Master Class
we are not talking about a soldier fighting within the context of war. There are reasons that planes, tanks, ships, missiles, machine guns and all sorts of hyper destructive weapon are used in war-fighting. What we are talking about is often a very limited engagement, at rather close range with few rounds fired, 2 or 3 total combatants which are similarly armed. Within this context.. NO, I do not think it matter much in regards to [power]. Anything can matter but when I say not much, I simply mean not to any degree that is likely to sway the outcome or be the singular cause of failure. If using a AR9 for a home defense weapons makes you happy... I think its great. There are certainly some inherent handicaps that are commonly associated with the use of a long-gun in CQB. Handicaps which are often mitigated by the assistance of additional defenders. As a lone defender, I would not likely select a rifle for a Home Defense weapon. Others might, many do.. and that is fine. A rifle will certainly do the job. As I said, there are some handicaps to using something with a barrel which will proceed your movement ( if movement is called for). Rifle retention techniques often lean toward yielding the weapon in hand to hand and transitioning to a secondary weapon. Rifles are harder to retain than more wieldy items like a handgun. At least in my opinion anyway. I have always had good luck retaining a handgun during retention training but do not recall ever retaining a rifle that someone else has a hold of. I have had an instructor mop the floor with me by using my own sling against me. Others can do what they want as everyone has a different circumstance. I can only share what I think by using myself as a template. I wont use a rifle as a HD weapon and will opt for something much more wieldy, easier to retain in a struggle and something easily used one handed.

Again, unless we are talking about a hand to hand struggle over a weapon, I dont think it much matters what firearm you are using in such a limited engagement as we typically see in a citizen home defense scenario. That is so long as it is not substantially underpowered or of exceedingly low capacity like a derringer. If a person has a 6 shot 357/38, a M1 Carbine, a AR9, a lever action 30/30 or a 7 shot 1911.. I dont think it much matters in regards to [power]. If you are using a single shot 410 or a 2 shot derringer or something that fires a 22LR, I might feel differently.

People often want to feel like what they personally want to do is actually relevant. Perhaps the difference between a 30 shot AR15 and a 7 shot level action 30/30 could make a different in a carefully constructed scenario. Never the less, I doubt that the difference is going to be what the overwhelming majority of home defense actions hinge upon. Could it? sure.. but I doubt it personally. People who are fretting over this 9mm or that 9mm, this 357 over that 5.56, are probably worried about the wrong thing. I say that while excluding concerns regarding overpenetration. Over penetration could probably be a thread on its own but I am not addressing these concerns in this thread. They dont seem to be part of the topic so I will leave it alone. In my rural setting with only me and the wife ( in the same room), I am not personally concerned with over penetration. I expect that a projectile that hits a wall will likely keep going a good ways.

If people want to worry about something that will probably matter, worry about detecting the danger as early as possible and making good tactical decisions which exploit conditions in your favor. Worry about having the mental grit and clarity to get things done properly. Worry about keeping intruders out to begin with. Worry about having the type of poor curb appeal that causes them to pick someone elses home. Worry about trying to initiate a help response sooner rather than later. I could go on and on but the bottom line here is that I am not a proponent of worrying about things such as having a 9mm or a 12ga. No matter what you decide to use, I hope you are proficient with it and have a good idea of tactics surround that particular platform.
I understand your position. I do think that should someone break into my home, that is indeed an act of war and threatens my wife's and I well being. At that point I want a gun that I can maneuver within the confinement of my home and yet be the most efficient at dealing with any threat or number of threats.
Your comment about your sling is exactly why I do not have one on mine.
It really does not matter if it is war or not, if a side arm were the most efficient weapon for clearing a home, that is exactly what those trained to do so would use.
We have a different philosophy is all. In such a situation I am going to bring the offense and everything that comes with it, and put them on defense. I may have the advantage of knowing my house but they have the advantage of being wide awake and prepared to possibly have a confrontation. I am going to put the odds in my favor in anyway possible.

Edit. I see you side arm is packed to 20. I do not own one that holds that many and might change my mind if I did.
Edit #2. I really need to upgrade my side arm as I have said. LOL
 
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ScottJ

Professional
Founding Member
I tend to agree with what Bob touched on. I have always felt that the weapon you start with is very likely going to be the weapon you finish with. The whole "fighting your way to your rifle" may sound nifty and hint at some level of romanticism but I do not consider the saying to be serious. IMO, transitioning to other weapon during a fight is something that very rarely ever happens outside of sustained war fighting. I wont lie, I have a weatherby 20 gauge squirreled away in the bedroom closet but its not really part of the HD plan outside of being a very last ditch option when everything else has crapped out. On the nightstand right now is a Springfield XDM loaded with 20 rounds of 9mm. It will have to do as I have no delusions about fighting my way to a secondary weapon. My shotgun is primarily for overly aggressive 4 legged predators that do ( on occasion) harass us.
"...overly aggressive 4 legged predators that do ( on occasion) harass us."

Lions, tigers, bears...?
 

KASHIRA-3

Elite
It really does not matter if it is war or not

Brother.. war fighting is largely about numbers of people and sustained/robust fighting. A soldiers load-out is not geared toward a rather fleeting and momentary use of force against a couple of people. War fighting have very different and rather broad imperatives which do not readily fit into the citizen home defense context.

Are you standing guard over your home with 300+ rounds on your person, rifle, pistol, knife, other ordinance and body armor/helmet? Are you working with a team of people similarly or perhaps more heavily armed than you? Are you protecting your home with team members that are utilizing specialized weapons and heavy weapons? There are certainly different type of "fighting" and war fighting is one such category. I am not suggesting that a person take defending their home less serious, I am simply suggesting that there are different issues involved.

This all goes back to what I said about one average SD weapon vs another average SD weapon. I stand on what I previously said and that was.."it is not likely to matter much" in the HD context. If you cannot draw a distiction between a couple of guys exchanging a few round inside a home with something like "backhawk down"... I am not sure how to explain it. Its different and the emphasis and crucialness surrounding "what weapon" is entirely different.

I do not intend to debase the discussion by continuing on this point so I will simply say good luck. I hope that what I have highlighted is of some minor benefit to someone.
 

the obsrver

Master Class
I am not sweeping someone else's house for hostiles does not make a bit of difference over if I am clearing my own house of hostiles. The tactics and arms do not change much in either situation. Or are you saying that a threat thousands and thousands of miles away requires more than a threat or threats within my home?
Like I said, it is also a pretty good bug out, camping, horse back riding, 4 wheeling piece of equipment. You run into a bear and you will appreciate the added accessories and muzzle velocity, not to mention the extra rounds over a side arm. So it serves more than one purpose. Not to mention it is pretty handy and accurate out to about 100 yards for varmints, yet does not travel as far as a 22lr.
Learn to protect the 10 yard circle, then the 50. Then the 100 and so on and so forth. This one just happens to do well at 10- 50 or a 100 a whole lot better than a side arm. Not to mention I can thread a can on to it and direct the shock of the sound away from me.
I am not talking about edc guns here. But that was not the topic either.
 
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KASHIRA-3

Elite
Edit. I see you side arm is packed to 20. I do not own one that holds that many and might change my mind if I did.
Edit #2. I really need to upgrade my side arm as I have said. LOL

I did not select the XDM based on capacity. I selected the XDM because it has shown to be very reliable, has a rail and is also ergonomically pleasing in my very average sized hands. I dont mind a larger gun since I have no plans to conceal the weapon on my person. That being said, a larger gun often yields more capacity. I welcome the additional ammo but it was not my priority. Speaking just for myself, if I have at least 5 rounds of something readily accepted as effective for lawful self defense, I dont fret. Less than 5 rounds of something of very low power... then i fret a little. As I eluded to previously, if I were being dropped into a hot LZ with enemy all around me, I would want something else.
 
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